Members Billster Posted October 20, 2009 Members Share Posted October 20, 2009 Case study: I have Jeff Beck's new Performing This Week... Live at Ronnie Scott's. I don't really want to single it out too much, because I've experienced the same thing listening to other recent releases. This is a disc that I've listened to at what I would call an "up front" volume, loud enough to dominate the room and pretty much preclude normal conversation. I would say it sounds okay at that listening level. Now, being a sociable sort, I often like to have music playing "in the background" at a level that allows normal conversation. Here's the issue: This new disc - you can't set a comfortable level where the music sits in the room without taking over. Lowering the volume, all you hear is the lead guitar*, kick drum, snare, and some cymbals. The bass disappears into the kick drum field, and the keyboard accompaniment disappears entirely. And even at that lower level, the sound is too aggressive to "sit" at a background level. As a matter of comparison, I have early CD prints of Blow by Blow and Wired. These are NOT "digitally remastered" and mangled, but just early CD prints when they put back catalog out on CD without any extra treatment. Similar content, but it can be played at a sociable level without drowning out normal conversation or becoming grating to hear. What's going on here? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * Okay, it's a Jeff Beck record, but still...and substitute "vocal" for "lead guitar" to apply this issue to any standard pop record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tremolounge Posted October 20, 2009 Members Share Posted October 20, 2009 Lowering the volume, all you hear is the lead guitar*, kick drum, snare, and some cymbals. The bass disappears into the kick drum field, and the keyboard accompaniment disappears entirely. Sounds like just about every concert I've been to in the last, oh, 20 years at least. Live sound mixers must believe that the kick drum is THE lead instrument, followed closely by the snare. I can't remember the last time I actually enjoyed the sound (as opposed to the performance) at a live show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted October 20, 2009 Members Share Posted October 20, 2009 To be fair, I went to two live shows at Irving Plaza recently: one in August to hear Collective Soul and one in September to hear Mat Kearney. The Collective Soul show was unbearable. Too loud and everything was distorted. Just horrendous. Mat Kearneys show on the other hand was beautiful. Vocals sat just right, the band was dynamic... truly enjoyable. Same arena, different genres of music but still, I don`t think that the loudness wars have gone into the live arena yet, I do think that certain live sound engineers feel the need to blow us away but I think for the most part this is dependent on who it is. As for CDs... this is old news and I`m done with it. I have a very difficult time listening to most CDs today and its not going to get fixed unless artists and labels (good luck with that one) stop the madness. I also blame Mastering Engineers because they eventually have the last say but no one is willing to lose any $$$ so they just give in to what the clients what, even though its audio suicide. Greed, the new King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Billster Posted October 20, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 20, 2009 Never mind the live sound, I imagine the show was recorded multi-track and remixed for the CD. The real issue is that the production is done in a way that the listener can't achieve a clear sound and comfortable volume simultaneously. Yet productions from 30 years previous meet the dual criteria easily. How is this possible? How is this allowed, much less purposeful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted October 20, 2009 Members Share Posted October 20, 2009 Never mind the live sound, I imagine the show was recorded multi-track and remixed for the CD.The real issue is that the production is done in a way that the listener can't achieve a clear sound and comfortable volume simultaneously. Yet productions from 30 years previous meet the dual criteria easily. How is this possible? How is this allowed, much less purposeful? The problem is that most people think louder is better, even labels. So when they master, its about pounding everything, with little consideration given to musicality and dynamics. We`ve spoken about this at length and its not going to change until artists and MEs take a stand against labels because I do think artists and MEs know the difference. At least, I have to hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 20, 2009 Members Share Posted October 20, 2009 I heard that really really loud is bad, and dynamics are good. Is this actually true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted October 20, 2009 Members Share Posted October 20, 2009 what did you say? I was being looking at my avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SteinbergerHack Posted October 20, 2009 Members Share Posted October 20, 2009 Live sound mixers must believe that the kick drum is THE lead instrument, followed closely by the snare. I can't remember the last time I actually enjoyed the sound (as opposed to the performance) at a live show. I asolutely DESPISE this approach, and it does appear to be getting more common. I've played a couple of shows over the past 2-3 years where I really, truly felt like just turning my amp off and waiting to see how long it took anyone to notice. I'm all in favor of a really good punchy drum sound, but..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members slight-return Posted October 20, 2009 Members Share Posted October 20, 2009 whew! good thing granddad passed away some years ago (he had the same gripes back in the day) I used to run dbx expanders (never really played much with the "impact rrestoration" features though, tended to keep those off) and would EQ at the listening volume to try to compensate not a perfect solution by any means, but helpful what's the current state-of-the-art with "reverse mastering" or "post mastering" compensation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 20, 2009 Members Share Posted October 20, 2009 what's the current state-of-the-art with "reverse mastering" or "post mastering" compensation? Shoot the ME, start over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 20, 2009 Members Share Posted October 20, 2009 what did you say? I was being looking at my avatar. I said that in a live performance or video, plunging cleavage on a beautiful female singer eliminates the need for AutoTune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cooterbrown Posted October 20, 2009 Members Share Posted October 20, 2009 You want to hear a freakin' stellar mix?Watch Later w/ Jools Holland.No atter how diverse the lineup on any particular night, every act sounds fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members slight-return Posted October 20, 2009 Members Share Posted October 20, 2009 Shoot the ME, start over. wouldn't that more be under development? I mean I think you can get a prototype to fly - but scaling it to production might be problematic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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