Members V-man Posted January 2, 2010 Members Share Posted January 2, 2010 In the spirit of a 2-year old thread whose details I could care less... this is my take on it. Example 1: For Sale- Guitar "X", near-mint w OHSC. $550 shipped Example 2: For Sale- Guitar "X", near-mint w OHSC. $500 + shipping If for whatever reason the buyer is unhappy with the condition of the guitar due to a 3rd party carrier (or his own sabatoge from buyer's remorse or some other shennanigans)... Example 1: it's the seller's ass. Including a cost for shipping without explicitly stating what the fees will and will NOT be used for puts the seller on the hook for damages should he have failed to pay for insurance. Example 2: It is the buyer's ass. Giving the buyer the opportunity to spend as much or as little for protection and expedience as he sees fit removes all liability from the seller as long as the fees are properly communicated. Grey areas? plenty. Lack of explicit communication can lead to situations where the buyer thinks one thing and the seller thinks another. If it is not clear in writing, you should be explicit in a subsequent writing (ok, so that's $50 for shiping, which is priority service with insurance, right) to save yourself the hassle of misunderstanding. yes, cool story... I know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members axegrinder Posted January 2, 2010 Members Share Posted January 2, 2010 Having some background in the shipping industry I lay the responsibility on the shipper, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eudaimonia02912 Posted January 2, 2010 Members Share Posted January 2, 2010 If I pay you for shipping (regardless of whether you say $shipped or $ plus shipping), then I expect that I will get the product at my door in the promised condition. If it does not arrive like that, then you owe my money back, and it's between you and your carrier to work out whether they owe you payment. On the other hand, suppose you explicitly said, "I will ship this with whatever level of insurance you prefer. You will pay for the insurance. If it arrives damaged by the carrier and you failed to pay insurance, you agree to accept the damage from the carrier." In that case, the responsibility goes to me, given what I agree to. But if you just say $500 plus shipping, and you tell me it's (let's say) $40 to ship, I think you're responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members V-man Posted January 2, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 2, 2010 Having some background in the shipping industry I lay the responsibility on the shipper, period. If you mean the 3rd party who transported it, that's another can of worms and if there is a case against that 3rd party, it behooves the seller and buyer to cooperate in a claim against the 3rd party for no other reason than good business and good will for another musician. If you mean the seller of the instrument, period, I call BS. I make my few-and-far-between sales very explicit, which is the extent of my responsibility... either I pay (which includes insurance or my butt in the sling) as in example 2, or you pay shipping which I explicitly inform you that I will do it as expensively/quickly/protected as you wish ON YOUR DIME. My obligation as a seller is to make very clear terms. Once the clear terms are chosen, then the fault comes from the party who chose to pay for shipping and omitted insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members V-man Posted January 2, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 2, 2010 But if you just say $500 plus shipping, and you tell me it's (let's say) $40 to ship, I think you're responsible. This is the grey area I am talking about. Let's use your hypo... Seller: $500 + shipping Buyer: How much to ship to 90210? Seller: Basic Ground to 90210 costs $40 Buyer: Sounds good, I'll have a money order out this week! Seller... You are a {censored}ing idiot because you did not go the extra mile and explicitly state "basic ground, which is only the freight, not insurance" or explicitly ask the seller if he wanted to pay extra for insurance Buyer... You are a {censored}ing idiot because you did not explicitly ask if insurance was included in the cost. This is a grey area that could be easily avoided by covering your ass at the email exchange with simple straightforward talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members axegrinder Posted January 2, 2010 Members Share Posted January 2, 2010 When I worked in shipping (way back in college), UPS would only deal with the shipper (as opposed to the recipient) in any damage or loss claim. If I had some jackass who wanted a guitar from me who wasn't willing to pay what it took to get the thing packed, shipped, and insured properly, then the deal would be off. Insurance is cheap, any miniscule savings are not worth the headache. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members V-man Posted January 2, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 2, 2010 When I worked in shipping (way back in college), UPS would only deal with the shipper (as opposed to the recipient) in any damage or loss claim. If I had some jackass who wanted a guitar from me who wasn't willing to pay what it took to get the thing packed, shipped, and insured properly, then the deal would be off. Insurance is cheap, any miniscule savings are not worth the headache. I agree it is not worth the hassle, and it may be wise policy to deal only with those who are willing to go with those reasonable terms of yours. The problem is assumptions here. Just because the carrier will only speak with the seller does not make the seller the one on the hook automatically. If the seller worded the exchange accurately or even ambiguously and the buyer took that at face value, then it is entirely possible that the buyer could be on the hook for partial loss (at a minimum) in small claims court because of an assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members axegrinder Posted January 2, 2010 Members Share Posted January 2, 2010 Even if you got it in writing, Paypal or a credit card company will probably side with the buyer. That leaves you with reliance on the court system...no thanks. I'd rather find a different buyer than risk a PayPal or credit card chargeback, and then hope that the court system saves my ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AzCat Posted January 2, 2010 Members Share Posted January 2, 2010 Grey areas? Not really. You're required to tender conforming goods under the contract you formed with the buyer. A smashed guitar would hardly be considered conforming when the good was advertised as being in "mint" condition (per your example). Absent explicit agreement to the contrary the risk of loss is probably going to remain with the seller until the the goods have been tendered to the buyer (see e.g., UCC Sec. 2-509). Thus if UPS smashes an uninsured guitar (or if they refuse to cough up the dough on a claim) the seller is most likely going to have to absorb the loss. Of course all parties involved (action site / forum, shipper, payment service, etc.) may modify the expected standard terms to benefit themselves, the buyer and / or the seller. The moral of the story: in each listing very clearly disclaim everything most definitely to include (but not limited to) all potential for shipping damage & explicitly limit recovery to insurance proceeds paid out by the shipper if that's your intent. Sorry, a broken finger is preventing me from doing justice to this topic but I'm sure you get the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members V-man Posted January 2, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 2, 2010 going to remain with the seller until the the goods have been tendered to the buyer (see e.g., UCC Sec. 2-509). Thus if UPS smashes an uninsured guitar (or if they refuse to cough up the dough on a claim) the seller is most likely going to have to absorb the loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soldierblue Posted January 2, 2010 Members Share Posted January 2, 2010 You don't not insure things you ship. It's just something you ALWAYS need to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bvr775 Posted January 2, 2010 Members Share Posted January 2, 2010 these guys can post any number of laws and ordinances and make you feel safe and secure. its nice to know the law, but lets face it, it don't mean jack for deals under 5g. you have to be willing and able to take a loss. small deals comes down to personal accountability. if you asking this question to start the thread then you know whether buying or selling that things go wrong sometimes.you are responsible for making sure that it is clear whos paying for what, where its going to be shipped, and what exactly is being shipped before going through with a deal. if you cant do this and you leave a gray area then its your fault and you have to be willing to say lesson learned it wont happen again. oh and buyers remorse is a bunch of bull{censored}.thats a sore subject with me because i had some jackass tryed to drag me through court over a house. .im sorry but if you buy something and you didnt know what it was worth, you didnt do your research, or as it happened in my case you just change your mind. sorry this aint preschool..grow up and get a damn a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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