Members atrox Posted January 26, 2010 Members Share Posted January 26, 2010 any little var that takes the tone of the guitar away from the responsibility of the Amp and secondary the pickups.. its the glue its the poly vs nitoits the caps and the potsits the cloth covered wire where all the magic happensNa... not buying it... just a bunch of market hype.. sure wood matters and finish but too such a small degree it can be Eq'ed out with the amp or a gain knob or presence.. jhmo. I agree to a point. Especially with gain, most differences can be EQ'ed away. Less so on a clean signal. However, Like mentioned above, you'll never EQ a 335 into an LP tone no matter how you try. Same pickups. But that is a HUGE difference is body style/type. I can generally get my mahogany strat to sound like my alder Strat just by adjusting the amp. but the point is... there is a difference in tone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BoneNut Posted January 26, 2010 Members Share Posted January 26, 2010 This debate always irritates me. I use oil finish on all my guitars, which, in some people's theories, would "let the wood breath" more than nitro. I have played many hundreds if not thousands of guitars in my shop. I can't honestly say that a Nitro finished guitar resonates more than a poly coated guitar. Even ones with thick coats. the wood is going to do what it is going to do regardless of what is on top of it. That said, My Gilmour Custom Shop Strat is Nitro finished and that is the only feature I do not like about it. not because of wear... It's because it's sticky. I do think an LP should have a nice nitro finish on it, because that is what looks best on them IMO. Pisses me off too and that's why I made fun of it. I happen to agree with you 1000% but why would anyone else here listen to you? It's not like you were some kind of extremely knowledgeable guitar builder who makes fantastic guitars you know. On the other hand, if you were one of the super popular guys here, then everyone would believe you AND kiss your ass on every one of your posts.EDIT: Someday...someday... someday, I will own a Telecaster made by you. Someday.Crap! I forgot! Telecasters aren't cool either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members atrox Posted January 26, 2010 Members Share Posted January 26, 2010 Pisses me off too and that's why I made fun of it. I happen to agree with you 1000% but why would anyone else here listen to you? It's not like you were some kind of extremely knowledgeable guitar builder who makes fantastic guitars you know. On the other hand, if you were one of the super popular guys here, then everyone would believe you AND kiss your ass on every one of your posts. Some people could actually believe what you said... couldn't tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BoneNut Posted January 26, 2010 Members Share Posted January 26, 2010 Some people could actually believe what you said... couldn't tell If there is anyone here that should be listened to about all this stuff, it's you.Most of us are just amateurs with opinions...sometimes ridiculous ones but you have to respect a Pros opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Carbohydrates Posted January 26, 2010 Members Share Posted January 26, 2010 You play electric unplugged? That's like masturbating with a condom on. That made no sense. I mean, I guess I see what you were going for with that one, but... ehhh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members atrox Posted January 26, 2010 Members Share Posted January 26, 2010 If there is anyone here that should be listened to about all this stuff, it's you. Most of us are just amateurs with opinions...sometimes ridiculous ones but you have to respect a Pros opinion. Well, I appreciate that man. Mine is just another opinion though. I mean, I can't back anything up with absolute facts, because I'm not into trying to prove what knowledge i have gathered in my years of doing this. People's opinions do not change in regards to tone woods. I have learned that on this board. It really isn't important enough to argue about anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted January 26, 2010 Members Share Posted January 26, 2010 Poly just doesn't crackle like that. Ever. But here's an easy test: Poly is resistant to chemical strippers. Dab a little stripper gel in an inconspicuous place like inside the control cavity or under the neck plate. If it dissolves it's nitro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members atrox Posted January 26, 2010 Members Share Posted January 26, 2010 Poly just doesn't crackle like that. Ever.But here's an easy test:Poly is resistant to chemical strippers. Dab a little stripper gel in an inconspicuous place like inside the control cavity or under the neck plate.If it dissolves it's nitro. Not all poly is resistant to strippers though. The polyester solution that Fender uses in modern days (boat grade stuff) is resistant however. I doubt they used the same stuff in the 70's. Though I know they used it in the mid eighties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yogi_Sizzle Posted January 27, 2010 Members Share Posted January 27, 2010 here is another example of poly wearing, my '81 Fender Bullet:Used to be Olympic white. If I had some up close pictures I could show you the small bits of checking, scrapes, dents, and the original white under the guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members atrox Posted January 27, 2010 Members Share Posted January 27, 2010 Well, please then, educate us. Because I do not believe there is such a thing as "polyester spray paint". The only paints I can find that contain polyester are either 1) powdercoat or 2) blended with another resin, like polyurethane. Find a website that sells liquid polyester paint, and I'll eat my hat. If guitars really are painted with "polyester" paint, then it's available in commercial wholesale quantities and some vendor will have a website. Poly urethane spray paint was invented by DuPont in 1970. It's brand name is Imron. It's a two-part paint, a catalyst has to be mixed in before spraying. Poly ester and poly urethane aren't the same thing! It yanks my chain that people use the two term interchangeably. No need to get mad at me. I understand the difference normally, and I could be wrong in my terminology somewhat. But I'll explain... I'm certainly not a finish expert. This is just something I read when i was looking into refinishing a Mexican Strat a few years ago. What I read was the stuff they used was like a boat grade Poly that had some plasticizers in it for more durability. I read it was a polyester or polyester-like additive (it could be the latter). I admit, what I said was misleading, as it's not polyester, but a polyurethane with an additive. What that additive is, i do not know, but I read it was polyester or polyester-like. I'm not going to look for that exact info now, because I just don't really have a benefit in doing so, but it's out there somewhere. Having refinished a few guitars, I can say for certain that Fender puts something in their poly that many makers do not put in. You either have to sand the finish off or burn it off. I apologize if I used the wrong label. Just repeating what I read. Actually I just read some references to it on the Fender forums just now. Looks like Grumpy's post was deleted anyway Edit#2: Doing some research (after I said I wouldn't) and it seems that it is actually a polyester finish with no polyurethane involved for MIM's and Squier, not sure about Japan. Essentially an epoxy. I guess modern MIA Fender's are using actual polyurethane though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pope on a Rope Posted January 27, 2010 Members Share Posted January 27, 2010 Poly just doesn't crackle like that. Ever.But here's an easy test:Poly is resistant to chemical strippers. Dab a little stripper gel in an inconspicuous place like inside the control cavity or under the neck plate.If it dissolves it's nitro. It's quite possible that polyurethane would crackle like that especially on an older guitar. Polyurethane is just a type of plastic and there are many variations designed for different applications and many formulas have come and gone over the years. It will last a lot longer than lacquer but it's not indestructible. Some of the polyurethane finishes available today are pretty close to being indestructible though. Old plastic can become quite brittle and crack very easily. Especially if steps weren't taken to preserve it and slow it's decay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bro Blue Posted January 27, 2010 Members Share Posted January 27, 2010 See, I told you: I predict lulz above and beyond those given so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members doodie Posted January 27, 2010 Members Share Posted January 27, 2010 interesting discussion, I'd love to see more aged poly gears from you guys! especially the lp copy from 70s-80s with poly coating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Inspector 71 Posted January 27, 2010 Members Share Posted January 27, 2010 Did you know that flouridated water was first used in nazi prison camps? or...http://www.newswithviews.com/NWVexclusive/exclusive15.htm oh wait guitars are guitars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BadDaddy Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Unlike a lot of of our competitors, who settle for a polyurethane finish, Gibson opts for a nitrocellulose finish that will encourage the natural vibration of the instrument for a purer tone. In addition, a nitro finish is very porous and actually gets thinner over time. That way your guitar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrbrown49 Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Gibson uses a vinyl based sealer to seal the grain before the nitro is applied, and then they add about 10 coats of nitro lacquer. A quick search of YouTube showing a Gibson having the neck scraped will amaze you how much paint they put on their guitars. So much for a thin finish. When properly applied polyurethane will be much thinner, and will dry much harder than nitro cellulose lacquer. Also, nitro is not porous and does not allow the guitar to "breath". If it did, you could use a film of nitro cellulose to breath through under water, and James Bond didn't do it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gasolinefight Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 after taking a look at fenders site, a number of their guitars say they are finished in "urethane" and others say "polyester" anyone want to hazard a guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pope on a Rope Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 after taking a look at fenders site, a number of their guitars say they are finished in "urethane" and others say "polyester" anyone want to hazard a guess? I Am taking a stab in the dark here. My guess is that the ones labeled as polyester are finished in a polyester finish and the ones said to be finished in urethane are finished in a urethane finish. Just a wild guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gasolinefight Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 I Am taking a stab in the dark here. My guess is that the ones labeled as polyester are finished in a polyester finish and the ones said to be finished in urethane are finished in a urethane finish. Just a wild guess. I kinda had that one coming I guess. I was getting more to the point that everyone here was talking about Nitro vs. Poly. And I was kinda wondering where "urethane" comes into that mix? what the difference is between the urethane finishes and the polyester finishes are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pope on a Rope Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 I kinda had that one coming I guess. I was getting more to the point that everyone here was talking about Nitro vs. Poly. And I was kinda wondering where "urethane" comes into that mix? what the difference is between the urethane finishes and the polyester finishes are? I have to run with things like that or else I can't sleep at night. I think the solid color finishes get a polyester top coat witch is also the color coat. The polyurethane gets used on guitars with transparent finishes. I Am not entirely certain of that though. Someone here will know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeadNight Warrior Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Uh oh, here's a controversial statement: not only does the finish not matter, but neither does the wood. Wood matters in acoustic guitars, and then only the top wood is really important. An electric guitar could be made out of plastic or whatever the crap you want and almost everybody couldn't tell the difference. It's all in the pickups.Not so much a controversial statement, just a very stupid one. Care to explain why my RG7620 (basswood) and RG2127X (mahogany) sound very different both plugged in and unplugged? Same neck pickup (Air Norton 7), and the RG7620 has had the same bridge pickup in it as what the 2127X still has (Evo 7). Same shape, same kind of hardware, same routes, etc. The UV777 also sounds very different from both of them... again, same shape, hardware, etc., same AN7 neck pickup, and again, it once had an Evo 7 in the bridge. :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Angry Tele Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 polyurethane polyester = poly poly is just the cute name for either of these the word poly just means many IIRC CIJ only use polyester now or on the necks US uses polyU on bodies PolyE something like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fred Buzz Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Pisses me off too and that's why I made fun of it. I happen to agree with you 1000% but why would anyone else here listen to you? It's not like you were some kind of extremely knowledgeable guitar builder who makes fantastic guitars you know. On the other hand, if you were one of the super popular guys here, then everyone would believe you AND kiss your ass on every one of your posts. EDIT: Someday...someday... someday, I will own a Telecaster made by you. Someday. Crap! I forgot! Telecasters aren't cool either. Same here too. Some people are so obsessed (or should I say possessed?) by nitrocellulose and its alleged tone properties, that they completely lose every objectivity, and they even refuse to believe what their own eyes tell them, just read the reactions about the PU Mustang. It Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Virgman Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Polyester. Very stylish. Accessorizing is very important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members benricci Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 I used to think that the guys who claimed a guitar's paint job enhanced it's sound were kidding. You know, like the whole bacon/poncho/pond nonsense. Then I found out they were serious. Then I laughed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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