Members Will Chen Posted March 4, 2010 Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 Not only that, if you yell into the pup you will hear it through the amp.Like I said earlier, if tone was only in the pups, all guitars with the same model pup would sound exactly the same. Unless you have an extremely microphonic pickup or are playing with gobs of gain, a typical modern pickup will not exhibit enough of a microphonic response to hear a yell into it much less the much quieter pluck of a string. There is no amplification of the "body" when it comes to an electric guitar or those guys playing large stadiums wouldn't be able to even touch a guitar without it going into uncontrollable feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PlectrumPete Posted March 4, 2010 Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 The sound that an electric guitar makes is mostly due to the pickups.....and maybe the amp. Reverse that and you'd be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted March 4, 2010 Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 . . . . You said you took physics, but still you challenge very elementary phsical laws. I would predict that you would challenge any written proof . . . And which elementary physical laws do you allege that I am challenging? So give the proof and let me analyse it - that would be a first here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members _pete_ Posted March 4, 2010 Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 Unless you have an extremely microphonic pickup or are playing with gobs of gain, a typical modern pickup will not exhibit enough of a microphonic response to hear a yell into it much less the much quieter pluck of a string. There is no amplification of the "body" when it comes to an electric guitar or those guys playing large stadiums wouldn't be able to even touch a guitar without it going into uncontrollable feedback. Yeah I should have added that the gain should be cranked but even still, it will pick up the sound. But if there's no amplification of the body, why do guitars with the same pups sound different? I had a Duncan Pearly Gates pup. I tried in probably 5 different guitars and I never liked it. I put it in an Epi LP Custom that I had and it sounded incredible. If the pup is all that imparts tone then it should have sounded good in any guitar but it did not. Another example: I had a Strat with a Squier body. It sounded good but not great. I bought a Warmoth Swamp Ash body for it. I swapped every part onto the Warmoth body. Same pups, pots, wiring, switch, neck, bridge, tuners, everything. The guitar sounded much louder, vibrant, and just plain excellent. This was thru the amp (digital amp with the same preset programs, no variables here). The body alone changed the tone dramatically. It was the only part changed and the guitar sounded very different. I firmly believe that a guitar's tone is the sum of all it's parts. Change one, and the tone will change. It may be minor but it will change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Meowy Posted March 4, 2010 Author Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 And which elementary physical laws do you allege that I am challenging? So give the proof and let me analyse it - that would be a first here! Smells like troll in here :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrbrown49 Posted March 4, 2010 Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 Another example: I had a Strat with a Squier body. It sounded good but not great. I bought a Warmoth Swamp Ash body for it. I swapped every part onto the Warmoth body. Same pups, pots, wiring, switch, neck, bridge, tuners, everything. The guitar sounded much louder, vibrant, and just plain excellent. This was thru the amp (digital amp with the same preset programs, no variables here). The body alone changed the tone dramatically. It was the only part changed and the guitar sounded very different. That's a perfect experiment right there. Seems the only people who argue against it are those that havn't really looked for it, or don't have the ears/hands/amp to tell the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PlectrumPete Posted March 4, 2010 Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 That's a perfect experiment right there. Seems the only people who argue against it are those that havn't really looked for it, or don't have the ears/hands/amp to tell the difference. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Heresay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Will Chen Posted March 4, 2010 Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 Yeah I should have added that the gain should be cranked but even still, it will pick up the sound.But if there's no amplification of the body, why do guitars with the same pups sound different?I had a Duncan Pearly Gates pup. I tried in probably 5 different guitars and I never liked it. I put it in an Epi LP Custom that I had and it sounded incredible. If the pup is all that imparts tone then it should have sounded good in any guitar but it did not.Another example: I had a Strat with a Squier body. It sounded good but not great. I bought a Warmoth Swamp Ash body for it. I swapped every part onto the Warmoth body. Same pups, pots, wiring, switch, neck, bridge, tuners, everything. The guitar sounded much louder, vibrant, and just plain excellent. This was thru the amp (digital amp with the same preset programs, no variables here). The body alone changed the tone dramatically. It was the only part changed and the guitar sounded very different.I firmly believe that a guitar's tone is the sum of all it's parts. Change one, and the tone will change. It may be minor but it will change. I agree that it's the sum of parts which makes a guitar. If you go back through the thread my theory is that every body/bridge assembly will have some type of dampening effect which is not broadband in response (ie some frequencies are absorbed more than others) resulting in changes in the vibration of the string which is being picked up. Think how much louder your yell is than a plucked string and think how much louder that plucked string is than the "self amplified" resonance of the body. Potentially, all yelling into a pickup is doing is causing the strings to sympathetically vibrate due to the proximity at which your yelling and the pups are picking that up. If it still works without the strings, then we have a more plausible (though still doubtful) scenario. Regarding tapping pickups, try tapping the poles with a screwdriver and then your finger. If they were truly microphonic in the sense we're discussing, ie acting like a vocal microphone with a diaphragm, then the material used to tap on the pup wouldn't make a difference. However, the metal object clearly has exponentially more impact than a pick or a finger due to the way which pickups work versus a traditional microphone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members _pete_ Posted March 4, 2010 Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 Regarding tapping pickups, try tapping the poles with a screwdriver and then your finger. If they were truly microphonic in the sense we're discussing, ie acting like a vocal microphone with a diaphragm, then the material used to tap on the pup wouldn't make a difference. However, the metal object clearly has exponentially more impact than a pick or a finger due to the way which pickups work versus a traditional microphone. Just for giggles, I plugged in my Les Paul just now and recorded this. Moderate gain and a little delay. I put my face next to the bridge pup (Gibson 498T, nickel cover, wax potted) and yelled "Hi Will!" http://www.trfmusicians.com/media/uhp2/music/165/hi_will.mp3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrbrown49 Posted March 4, 2010 Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 Just for giggles, I plugged in my Les Paul just now and recorded this. Moderate gain and a little delay. I put my face next to the bridge pup (Gibson 498T, nickel cover, wax potted) and yelled "Hi Will!" http://www.trfmusicians.com/media/uhp2/music/165/hi_will.mp3 Fan-freakin-tastic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members paulskirocks Posted March 4, 2010 Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 Just for giggles, I plugged in my Les Paul just now and recorded this. Moderate gain and a little delay. I put my face next to the bridge pup (Gibson 498T, nickel cover, wax potted) and yelled "Hi Will!" http://www.trfmusicians.com/media/uhp2/music/165/hi_will.mp3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Will Chen Posted March 4, 2010 Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 Just for giggles, I plugged in my Les Paul just now and recorded this. Moderate gain and a little delay. I put my face next to the bridge pup (Gibson 498T, nickel cover, wax potted) and yelled "Hi Will!" http://www.trfmusicians.com/media/uhp2/music/165/hi_will.mp3 Very good sir. I can guarantee none of my axes have pups that microphonic... EDIT - wait a second, did you use a mic to record the guitar? Where were you in relation to the mic... EDIT 2 - Never mind, delay on the vox... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members _pete_ Posted March 4, 2010 Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 Very good sir. I can guarantee none of my axes have pups that microphonic... EDIT - wait a second, did you use a mic to record the guitar? Where were you in relation to the mic...EDIT 2 - Never mind, delay on the vox... The guitar is recorded direct off the speaker cables from the head. No mics anywhere.The thing is, the pup is not microphonic. I play loud and fairly high gain and get no squeals or anything like that.It's an off the shelf, wax potted, brand new 498T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Super Bass Posted March 4, 2010 Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 IMO (and that's all it can be) an instruments sound comes from the sum of all parts. Some parts may have more or less weight in the equation. However, it's difficult to say exactly what parts those are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Will Chen Posted March 4, 2010 Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 The guitar is recorded direct off the speaker cables from the head. No mics anywhere.The thing is, the pup is not microphonic. I play loud and fairly high gain and get no squeals or anything like that.It's an off the shelf, wax potted, brand new 498T. Well, I always thought that was the very definition of a microphonic pickup, it's just still got some life in it. However as they say, if it ain't broke... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eddie Posted March 5, 2010 Members Share Posted March 5, 2010 Is there any way from the pore or grain structure or any other "markers" or tests to predict if the body will tend to be bright or dark? There are many good answers in the thread. I'll add that experience is one way to predict how a guitar will sound. Having said that, wood definitely has an impact on tone, and identical guitars using the same pickups can yield different sounds. IIRC, Steve Bluchner -who designs pickups at DiMarzio- does not consider the pickup the most important factor in determining a guitar's tone. An established luthier could try a "reference" pickup and then determine the ideal pickups for that guitar. Or they could try a couple of different pickups and determine the best match for the guitar. Of course this is more time consuming and they need to have different pickups in stock. Here are some quotes I posted a while back, from pickup designers:http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=2461906&page=4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Citizen_Insane Posted March 5, 2010 Members Share Posted March 5, 2010 The right person to ask about this would be Gil Yaron (Preeb) of TDPRI. He's done extensive testing on the topic in addition to being a master guitar builder. Go over and ask on TDPRI, they're more geared toward answering these kinds of questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Angry Tele Posted March 5, 2010 Members Share Posted March 5, 2010 just ask whomever is winding the pickup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted March 5, 2010 Members Share Posted March 5, 2010 Smells like troll in here :poke:No proof, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 59humbucker Posted March 5, 2010 Members Share Posted March 5, 2010 I never get people who don't understand how the wood might affect tone. The p'ups translate the vibration of the string into sound, the frequency and amplitude of the vibration translating into differring notes and tones. Absolutely everything connected to the guitar's construction will change the frequency that the string vibrates at (to varying degrees) as the strings are attatched to the body. They are not separate objects, the whole instrument vibrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Angry Tele Posted March 5, 2010 Members Share Posted March 5, 2010 I never get people who don't understand how the wood might affect tone.The p'ups translate the vibration of the string into sound, the frequency and amplitude of the vibration translating into differring notes and tones.Absolutely everything connected to the guitar's construction will change the frequency that the string vibrates at (to varying degrees) as the strings are attatched to the body. They are not separate objects, the whole instrument vibrates obviously...one of the biggest influence on teh tone is pick material. I think the problem is trying to say X=good Y=bad where its really just X=different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrbrown49 Posted March 5, 2010 Members Share Posted March 5, 2010 And which elementary physical laws do you allege that I am challenging? So give the proof and let me analyse it - that would be a first here! Newton's third law comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members paulskirocks Posted March 5, 2010 Members Share Posted March 5, 2010 The right person to ask about this would be Gil Yaron (Preeb) of TDPRI. He's done extensive testing on the topic in addition to being a master guitar builder.Go over and ask on TDPRI, they're more geared toward answering these kinds of questions. Just go read all 32 pages of his Les Paul build on TDPRI... No need to bother him with questions... He talks extensively about it... He even fusses over what kind of material is used for the pickup ring, as it affects tone, as well... He talks about the string ferrules and tuner bushings having an effect on tone... Of course, he is a freak of nature, and is picky to the most minute details... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 59humbucker Posted March 5, 2010 Members Share Posted March 5, 2010 obviously...one of the biggest influence on teh tone is pick material. I think the problem is trying to say X=good Y=bad where its really just X=different Absolutely, thickness as well, it's an easy one to try at home as well kids. My rig sounds much better to my ears when I use heavier picks. Although its a bit opinionated to say X = good, y bad, I think people really mean x = desireable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PlectrumPete Posted March 5, 2010 Members Share Posted March 5, 2010 ...Absolutely everything connected to the guitar's construction will change the frequency that the string vibrates at (to varying degrees) .. That would just make it out of tune. "Tone" is not the frequency at which the strings vibrate, it's the time dependent, relative magnitude of the harmonics plus the drone and interference effects caused by the resonant frequencies of the other parts of the guitar. And yes, wood makes a difference until you plug the pickups into an effects chain, into an amp connected to a speaker sitting in a cabinet sitting in a room/bar/hall. Pretty much everything apart from the fundamental frequency is lost or so diluted by the rest of the chain that the wood is so irrelevant that it's not worth fussing over. The shape of the guitar is just as important - that determines the Chladni modes of the body as much, if not more than the wood. And all pickups will be microphonic to some extent. They are mounted in a flexible way to a flexible thing so they will move when hit by sound waves in the air. Put a string over them (which will also move when shouted at!), then you will get a signal out of them. This says nothing at all about wood. I could go on, but I have a beer waiting for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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