Any way to predict the tonal character of a body before a build?

[wagdog]

The fact of the matter is, body wood and design DOES make a difference in the overall tonal characteristics of an electric guitar. If it didn't, a hollow body and a solid body would sound exactly the same given the same exact set of pickups and amp... and they don't.

 

The question is, HOW MUCH does it matter. And if you run your ax through a tubescreamer, big muff and satchurator all on at the same time, it doesn't even matter if your playing a banjo with a pickup or a $10k custom shop guitar.

 

To answer the OP's question; I don't know. But I would gather that someone who's built A LOT of guitars from hand picked lumber could tell. I'm guessing it's one of the experience/feel things that probably can't be easily described.

 

The guy who built my custom tele out of solid maple couldn't tell ahead of time, and he had built quite a few guitars. He said he used wood that looked and felt solid and hoped for the best. The guitar came out nice, so I guess there's something to that.

[Meowy]

Can you prove that?

 

 

I can prove that you choose to be close-minded. The earth was flat.... once upon a time

[Meowy]

If you really think those points are fixed then you should take a physics class. Those points, the materials they are made of, and the supporting structure are all free to vibrate, and thus can't be a 'fixed' point.

 

 

I'll play for both teams...

 

For practical purposes the anchor points are fixed, but of course there is a minute, perhaps immeasurable sympathetic movement.

[mrbrown49]

I can prove that you choose to be close-minded. The earth was flat.... once upon a time

 

 

His notion of 'fixed points' just isn't true. His rational is flawed right down to it's core.

[DaleH]

How does the wood affect the vibration of the strings? Surely the string is vibrating freely in air between two fixed points (the nut and saddle) and those vibrations are detected by the PU which is sitting a couple on mm beneath. In an acoustic guitar that vibration is amplified by the body of the guitar but not so with an electric - it's the PU and amp that does the work.

 

 

Ok attach those two fixed points to spunge.

[Les Paul Lover]

Can you prove that?

Garthman, we are not impressed!!!!!!

I've ready enough of you intelligent posts (in other threads on AG) to know that you are either trolling this very thread or that your account has been hacked.


Only the attack of the string (or say the 1st 0.01second) is true and leaves the wood irrelevant. (no sponges involved here, say it's a real guitar!)
After that all the string vibrations go through all the components in between, each of which dampens some of the vibrations whilst letting some other go almost unhampered.

No idea how one knows which way a prticluar piece of woods will react, but the tap test (disclaimer: I have never built a guitar but intent to) will quickly let you learn that the same woods can be somewhat different, though I do not know in which way as I have not built from any of those I tapped.

Well, that was a load of waffle for not much help......

[roygbiv]

anyone want to see me light a fart?

[ashasha]

Ok attach those two fixed points to spunge.

If wood didn't matter than {censored} like trem blocks, saddle materials, nut material, etc wouldn't impact sound at all.

Now I am not a professional luthier and I at times I am just above functionally retarded, but I do have enough wikipedia based knowledge to be a real pain in the ass on the internet. I actually do have a job in broadcast and production so I have some legitimate theory, although it's mostly electronics and computer {censored} these days.

So now that the disclaimer is out of the way, woods absolutely make a difference in the way the guitar sounds. It's really damn easy to prove today; especially in today's world. Go to a music store, pick up 5 guitars of the same model and play them. Tell me that they all sound exactly the same.

With today's CNC machines, electronically programmed pickup winders, tighter tolerances in every facet of construction there should be absolutely no difference between any of these guitars. Now chances are pretty good that a Les Paul isn't going to sound like a tele, but there will be one guitar out of the group that sounds the BEST. The only big variable between these guitars is going to be the wood itself.

And something else that you have to think about is the fact that the guitar's string is vibrating, but so is the body of the guitar. It is going to influence the originating source and create all kinds of harmonics and have a different resonant frequency based on what the wood is doing.

I've heard the difference between a good LP and a bad one is that if the G string sounds thin at the 12th fret. All things being as equal as possible the biggest factor is going to be the resonant frequency and strength of it.

I don't know if everyone here has heard the EVH story about an incredible Explorer that he had. It was killer according to him. He cut part of the body off and it just completely ruined the tone of the guitar. That alone tells me that the wood is impacting the way the guitar sounds.

And the last factor that I am not exactly an expert on is the fact that the pickups do get some sound from the body. The vibrations are transferred to the coils through the wood. You can't tell me that you can tap a pickup and hear it and then tell me that the vibrations don't impact the sound at all.

With all that said I do agree that you can dial in a lot of what you want via pickup height, tone and volume. As long as you aren't making it out a wet piece of balsa or something you should have something that you can work with.

[Jim_Soloway]

I have an unfinished swamp ash body. Weight is ~ 4lb 14oz,which I know is not particularly light or heavy - somewhere in the middle ground Is there any way from the pore or grain structure or any other "markers" or tests to predict if the body will tend to be bright or dark? I'm sure there is a way to tell. Builders would not take a pot luck approach to buying lots of wood / blanks. I guess I am asking how can you tell...? EDIT: PS, I don't mean maple is bright, mahogany is warm, etc. I mean for a given specimen of a certain variety of wood (in my case Swamp Ash). I ask because I am ordering a custom pup and would like to balance my magnet choice appropriately. Problem is I do not have most of the other parts yet so I do not have a complete instrument to try out with another pickup as a baseline.

 

 

The rules are not absolute, but for the most part, swamp ash has a scooped response curve with a tight and prominent low end, weaker mids and very prominent highs with a lot of sizzle. As it get heavier the high end tend to get more focussed and a bit spikier. Northern ash, which is much denser, tends to have a very spiky high end. 4.5lbs is tending towards the heavy side without being extreme.

[Will Chen]

The rules are not absolute, but for the most part, swamp ash has a scooped response curve with a tight and prominent low end, weaker mids and very prominent highs with a lot of sizzle. As it get heavier the high end tend to get more focussed and a bit spikier. Northern ash, which is much denser, tends to have a very spiky high end. 4.5lbs is tending towards the heavy side without being extreme.

 

 

Jim, I've always wondered. I realize you preface your post with a disclaimer, but in your professional opinion is it necessarily the species of wood or the relative density which has the impact. I understand that certain species fall within typical density ranges, but if one were to build 2 guitars out of different wood species which had the same scientifically measured density could one expect them to sound the same (given all other factors being equal) in an electric guitar?

[Jim_Soloway]

 

Jim, I've always wondered. I realize you preface your post with a disclaimer, but in your professional opinion is it necessarily the species of wood or the relative density which has the impact. I understand that certain species fall within typical density ranges, but if one were to build 2 guitars out of different wood species which had the same scientifically measured density could one expect them to sound the same (given all other factors being equal) in an electric guitar?

 

 

I believe it's the characteristics of the species. I'm not a scientist so I can't tell you the reasons why, but it's not unusual to have two bodies, one made of swamp ash and the other made of alder that have similar density and yet have noticably different tonal response.

[Meowy]

Jim, Will - thank you both for bringing experience to this thread, rather than speculation.

Interesting anecdote about alder / ash above...

I mentioned earlier in this thread that "tapping" the MIA body used on my first build gave a very pinggy response, and more resonant than the body I am preparing to build upon. I should have mentioned that MIA body is alder and the upcoming build is swamp ash.

So to reiterate my oringal question, is there any way to destinguish if the ash body will tend towards bright or dark(warmth)? I ask primarily because I am intersted in using an Alnico 3 pickup but I want to try and ensure the body is not too dark to begin and instead I would use A5

[Jim_Soloway]

 

Jim, Will - thank you both for bringing experience to this thread, rather than speculation. Interesting anecdote about alder / ash above... I mentioned earlier in this thread that "tapping" the MIA body used on my first build gave a very pinggy response, and more resonant than the body I am preparing to build upon. I should have mentioned that MIA body is alder and the upcoming build is swamp ash. So to reiterate my oringal question, is there any way to destinguish if the ash body will tend towards bright or dark(warmth)? I ask primarily because I am intersted in using an Alnico 3 pickup but I want to try and ensure the body is not too dark to begin and instead I would use A5

 

 

My expectation is that it will be from bright to very bright. What neck/fingerboard are you planning to use?

[Meowy]

My expectation is that it will be from bright to very bright. What neck/fingerboard are you planning to use?

 

 

So seems I am safe with A3?

 

Warmoth (59 or std) maple/rosewood, but I would also consider maple/maple or maple/pau ferro

[Fred Buzz]

If wood didn't matter than {censored} like trem blocks, saddle materials, nut material, etc wouldn't impact sound at all. Now I am not a professional luthier and I at times I am just above functionally retarded, but I do have enough wikipedia based knowledge to be a real pain in the ass on the internet. I actually do have a job in broadcast and production so I have some legitimate theory, although it's mostly electronics and computer {censored} these days. So now that the disclaimer is out of the way, woods absolutely make a difference in the way the guitar sounds. It's really damn easy to prove today; especially in today's world. Go to a music store, pick up 5 guitars of the same model and play them. Tell me that they all sound exactly the same. With today's CNC machines, electronically programmed pickup winders, tighter tolerances in every facet of construction there should be absolutely no difference between any of these guitars. Now chances are pretty good that a Les Paul isn't going to sound like a tele, but there will be one guitar out of the group that sounds the BEST. The only big variable between these guitars is going to be the wood itself. And something else that you have to think about is the fact that the guitar's string is vibrating, but so is the body of the guitar. It is going to influence the originating source and create all kinds of harmonics and have a different resonant frequency based on what the wood is doing. I've heard the difference between a good LP and a bad one is that if the G string sounds thin at the 12th fret. All things being as equal as possible the biggest factor is going to be the resonant frequency and strength of it. I don't know if everyone here has heard the EVH story about an incredible Explorer that he had. It was killer according to him. He cut part of the body off and it just completely ruined the tone of the guitar. That alone tells me that the wood is impacting the way the guitar sounds. And the last factor that I am not exactly an expert on is the fact that the pickups do get some sound from the body. The vibrations are transferred to the coils through the wood. You can't tell me that you can tap a pickup and hear it and then tell me that the vibrations don't impact the sound at all. With all that said I do agree that you can dial in a lot of what you want via pickup height, tone and volume. As long as you aren't making it out a wet piece of balsa or something you should have something that you can work with.

Nice story, and the facts are right, but the question was "How can you predict what kind of sound a certain piece of wood will give me?

So, just one silly question:

Perhaps you can use your wikipedia based knowledge to give the answer to that question?

[Jim_Soloway]

So seems I am safe with A3? Warmoth (59 or std) maple/rosewood, but I would also consider maple/maple or maple/pau ferro

 

 

The general agreement is that in combination with swam ash, rosewood and pau ferro will give you more high end sizzle and maple will smooth out the high end a bit. Suhr recommends going with a maple board with swamp ash because of that. We use all three, but then I like that high end sizzle a lot.

[Elias Graves]

What this proves to me is that acoustics are damn complex.

Cool discussion though.

 

EG

[DaleH]

You could shape the tone with the nut and saddles a little.
To dark try a brass or nickel nut.
I put a brass block trem in my last strat build, it's smovvvv.

[_pete_]

This stuff cracks me up.

On this forum you'll see guys going nuts saying that the type of finish will make huge differences in tone and now here we hear that the wood doesn't matter. It's all pups and amp.

 

 

Ok riddle me this...

If the wood does not affect an electric guitar's tone, then if I put, say, a Duncan JB in an Epi Les Paul and play through a Fender Twin, I can then take that same Duncan JB, put it in a Gibson R9, and it will sound exactly the same through that same Fender Twin, right?

 

I kinda doubt it.

You could put that same JB in two otherwise identical Les Pauls and they will sound different.

 

 

 

I've had pups that sound great in some guitars and awful in others. Same pup, same amp, different guitars, and very different tone.

The wood makes a difference.

[Meowy]

The general agreement is that in combination with swam ash, rosewood and pau ferro will give you more high end sizzle and maple will smooth out the high end a bit. Suhr recommends going with a maple board with swamp ash because of that. We use all three, but then I like that high end sizzle a lot.

 

 

Really? I would have thought that rosewood would warm (ie tone down) the brightness not accentuate and maple/maple might add more brightness. Thanks for the tip

[Will Chen]

I believe it's the characteristics of the species. I'm not a scientist so I can't tell you the reasons why, but it's not unusual to have two bodies, one made of swamp ash and the other made of alder that have similar density and yet have noticably different tonal response.

 

 

Very interesting! On the surface, I would think it would simply be the density. But thinking about it, different species could also potentially dictate a certain grain pattern which, while the same density as another piece of wood, might affect the frequencies at which the most absorption would occur which could also lend a bit of credence to the new vs old growth argument. However, I gotta believe we're speaking in the minutia of tonal gain at this point rather than a simple good vs bad argument which in fact be easily compensated for with pickups/eq choice...

[ashasha]

Nice story, and the facts are right, but the question was "How can you predict what kind of sound a certain piece of wood will give me? So, just one silly question: Perhaps you can use your wikipedia based knowledge to give the answer to that question?

If I could do that I would have answered the damn question already.

All I've got is guitar-lore to use as possible explanations, but I did use my personal experiences to try to prove facts in my post. I know that certain woods sound brighter to me, but none of that is anything revolutionary or even helpful.

[Pope on a Rope]

 

No, no frequencies can be "reflected back" as there is no action which is causing a transfer back to the strings. There can't be a feedback loop unless two forces are equally amplifying a sound wave. The body can affect the tone via energy lost to the body. Very very little attenuation happens due to the atmosphere.

 

 

Energy has to be reflected back to the strings in order for them to vibrate. Energy that is not immediately dissipated returns to the strings or takes another path that offers less resistance. Frequencies that are resisted by the guitar are the frequncies that your amplifier amplifies.

 

The energy has to go somewhere. So eventually, all of the energy does make it's way out to the atmosphere or to your body. The guitar body has no means of storing energy so that energy can only be transferred elsewhere.

[Will Chen]

Energy has to be reflected back to the strings in order for them to vibrate. Energy that is not immediately dissipated returns to the strings or takes another path that offers less resistance. Frequencies that are resisted by the guitar are the frequncies that your amplifier amplifies. The energy has to go somewhere. So eventually, all of the energy does make it's way out to the atmosphere or to your body. The guitar body has no means of storing energy so that energy can only be transferred elsewhere.

 

 

Think about throwing a rock in a lake near a wall. The ripples from the wave hit the wall and bounce back because the the two are diametrical forces. I believe the string to body relationship is sympathetic as energy is transfered not reflected. If it was reflected back, the body would not resonate at all. The energy transfered to the body is dampened infinitely.

[ashasha]

Think about throwing a rock in a lake near a wall. The ripples from the wave hit the wall and bounce back because the the two are diametrical forces. I believe the string to body relationship is sympathetic as energy is transfered not reflected. If it was reflected back, the body would not resonate at all. The energy transfered to the body is dampened infinitely.

If that was the case then things like this wouldn't do anything.