Requesting some info from ES-335 Owners (For My Carbon Fiber ES335 Project)

[Citizen_Insane]

Hey guys, I was hoping to get a little more data about the ES-335 for my senior independent study design project for my Mechanical Engineering degree.

 

First off, if you want the full details, see my thread on TDPRI:

 

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/167346-definitely-not-tele-carbon-fiber-es335-project.html

 

Now on to my questions:

 

1) Should I use a completely solid center block or should I have the block stop a few inches after the stop-bar, leaving some space for extra resonance behind the bridge? How would the affect the tone? I love the sound of my full hollow bodies, but would this cause a lot of extra feedback? I don't usually play at super high volumes or with high gain, I play a DRRI on about 4-5 for most shows and I just got a Vox AC4.

 

2) What's the neck angle on an ES-335? Any reasons to change this? I'm thinking of putting a Bigsby on it, depends on how much extra cash I have when it gets to finishing time.

 

3) Can anyone tell me the thickness of the maple top on an ES335? Think it would be close to that of my Epiphone Emperor Regent (full hollow)?

 

I'm asking about the thickness because I plan on doing some vibrational analysis of maple laminate to try and get as close to the same tone out of carbon fiber (but with much lower weight).

 

I'll still be using a maple center block. The neck will also be maple or mahogany (which did the ES335 use?), but will have a CF outside structure to add support. I'll be using a dual action truss rod so that I can make sure the relief is correct (in case the neck is too stiff, or not stiff enough).

 

Thanks:wave:

[Electric Blues]

Very cool project and if you don't mind, I'll just lurk here in the background and watch.

 

BTW, I had a Yamaha AES1500 that only had a center block under the bridge and tailpiece. I didn't have any problem with feedback but I don't play with high gain either.

[Citizen_Insane]

Yeah for sure, I'll post up some pics and info about the build, maybe I'll start an official build thread once I get started. Right now I'm focusing on vibrational analysis so that I can determine the thickness of the top plate.

 

This semester I will probably just get the top and back plates built. Possibly the sides too if I have enough time. The neck, center-block and full construction will have to wait until next semester when I have more time dedicated to the project.

[D Carroll]

I have a Yamaha sa500, a damn fine es-335 clone. I'm not guitar savvy enough to get you the specs you asked for, but, if you tell me what ya need, I'd be glad to take a picture or 2 and upload them.

[Steve the Hero]

I'd start with snagging some of the full size blueprints for a 335 floating around online. I think you can order them from Stew Mac or ebay. It gives you the thickness of everything.

[DaveAronow]

there was a brand new company that just posted a few days ago in the spam thread. They have a huge line of carbon fider guitars including hollow bodies. You could P.M. them and ask them advice. They may not want to share it with you, but so far, my experience here with every luthier, Quarter, Jim Soloway, Atrox, A.J.C., and everyone else has been overwhelmingly helpful. Id try them since they have been there/done that a million times. Youll find it a few pages back in the spam thread. Hurry though, because it might get wiped out when the month changes and the new spam thread starts at the beginning of the month./

[MahaloVision]

Yes, please post the progress!

 

As I understand things, which is admittedly very little, Carbon Fiber has conductive properties. I could see where there might be both benefits and challenges in making an entire body with it.

 

 

The neck will also be maple or mahogany (which did the ES335 use?), but will have a CF outside structure to add support.

 

 

I might do that for looks, but for reinforcement you could always just inlay a couple CF bars in the neck under the fingerboard like others do. As for neck angle, you simply have to draw out a side elevation, account for fret height, fingerboard thickness, bridge, etc., then leave a little room both high and low to adjust.

[Citizen_Insane]

I'm starting to think I should build the whole neck from CF. It would be far more impressive that using a typical wooden neck and I think my professor would like as much of the guitar as possible built from composites. Plus I'm thinking it might help the guitar be more ballanced, I'm worried right now that I'll be too neck heavy, especially if I don't have the center block running all the way through the body.

[Electric Blues]

 

I'm starting to think I should build the whole neck from CF. It would be far more impressive that using a typical wooden neck and I think my professor would like as much of the guitar as possible built from composites. Plus I'm thinking it might help the guitar be more ballanced, I'm worried right now that I'll be too neck heavy, especially if I don't have the center block running all the way through the body.

 

 

Would a composite be stiff enough for string tension with some sort of truss rod?

 

A graphite fret board would be ver cool. Always slick and maintanence free:thu:.

[Citizen_Insane]

Yes, it would be stiff enough, but I'm unsure if I could get it setup well without a truss rod.

[Citizen_Insane]

bump for unanswered questions.

[Doctor49]

 

Hey guys, I was hoping to get a little more data about the ES-335 for my senior independent study design project for my Mechanical Engineering degree. First off, if you want the full details, see my thread on TDPRI: http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/167346-definitely-not-tele-carbon-fiber-es335-project.html Now on to my questions: 1) Should I use a completely solid center block or should I have the block stop a few inches after the stop-bar, leaving some space for extra resonance behind the bridge? How would the affect the tone? I love the sound of my full hollow bodies, but would this cause a lot of extra feedback? I don't usually play at super high volumes or with high gain, I play a DRRI on about 4-5 for most shows and I just got a Vox AC4. 2) What's the neck angle on an ES-335? Any reasons to change this? I'm thinking of putting a Bigsby on it, depends on how much extra cash I have when it gets to finishing time. 3) Can anyone tell me the thickness of the maple top on an ES335? Think it would be close to that of my Epiphone Emperor Regent (full hollow)? I'm asking about the thickness because I plan on doing some vibrational analysis of maple laminate to try and get as close to the same tone out of carbon fiber (but with much lower weight). I'll still be using a maple center block. The neck will also be maple or mahogany (which did the ES335 use?), but will have a CF outside structure to add support. I'll be using a dual action truss rod so that I can make sure the relief is correct (in case the neck is too stiff, or not stiff enough). Thanks:wave:

 

 

If the project is making a 335 in carbon fibre, I strongly recommend leaving the basics the same. You need to be able to bench mark the effects against an original.

If you are just making a carbon fibre guitar, then you can fiddle with stuff but you may find the result is not as easy to understand as it might be.

 

I agree you should try to get the drawings from somewhere and that will baseline the design for you. Do the basic research and then decide what you want to do.

 

The centre block change may very well change the tone but nothing like as much as making the body from carbon fibre. You will have to watch out for the Bigsby screw points as well.

 

I guess you know there is more to the guitar as a vibrational system than simply the modes of the top. You need to consider the modes in the whole thing, neck included as that contributes to the relative movement of the nut and bridge, giving characteristics to the nut to bridge string modes.

 

For me, the interest would be cloning the design in different materials, not trying design a better carbon fibre guitar.

 

 

But thats just me.

 

Good luck, I look forward to the build thread.

[Citizen_Insane]

If the project is making a 335 in carbon fibre, I strongly recommend leaving the basics the same. You need to be able to bench mark the effects against an original. If you are just making a carbon fibre guitar, then you can fiddle with stuff but you may find the result is not as easy to understand as it might be. I agree you should try to get the drawings from somewhere and that will baseline the design for you. Do the basic research and then decide what you want to do. The centre block change may very well change the tone but nothing like as much as making the body from carbon fibre. You will have to watch out for the Bigsby screw points as well. I guess you know there is more to the guitar as a vibrational system than simply the modes of the top. You need to consider the modes in the whole thing, neck included as that contributes to the relative movement of the nut and bridge, giving characteristics to the nut to bridge string modes. For me, the interest would be cloning the design in different materials, not trying design a better carbon fibre guitar. But thats just me. Good luck, I look forward to the build thread.

 

Thanks for weighing in. That's sort of what I've been debating with myself. Part of the problem is not having a real ES335 to compare the guitar to.

 

One of the main reasons I want to have a partial block is that I want to have more acoustic sound.

 

Anyway, if anyone wants to weigh in on my other question (hint hint )

 

3) Can anyone tell me the thickness of the maple top on an ES335? Think it would be close to that of my Epiphone Emperor Regent (full hollow)?

[Jealousblues]

following, sounds interesting

[Citizen_Insane]

If anyone is interested in some of the technical progress on my work, I've attached a progress review from my class. It might be an interesting read for those of you who are interested in the engineering aspects of this build.

[docjeffrey]

If you like the sound of a full hollow body, go for it. Otherwise, I'd stick to the typical maple center block with strips of wood (pine?) that fill the void caused by the arch of the top and back.

 

With carbon fiber, I would think that you could bolt components (bridge, tailpeice, Bigsby) directly to the top with a reinforcement strip glued to the underside of the body where the bolts attach--no need for a solid block that runs from top to bottom. But your the engineer, so do the math first.

 

Have fun with the project. I'll be following this thread:-)

[Citizen_Insane]

Hey guys, just a little update. I've revampped the project a bit (since I now have an ES-335 Style Guitar - an Epiphone Sheraton II), I'm going to build an ES-330. Same dimensions and everything, but fully hollow w/ a Bigsby (b70?) and TV Jones Filtertrons.

 

I've been working on a 3d model to cut the mold via CNC Milling. Here are some preliminary renders. This body style is based more off the SA2200, than the ES-330, but I also added a bit more recurve.

 

I'm also rendering out a video in 720P so I can tell if there are any errors in the geometry. However, this will take about an hour so I'll post it up later.

 

(Work is done in 3d Studio Max rendered in VRay)

 

[No Soul]

just FYI, I dont know if you are trying to copy ES330 specs to the T, or are following a blue print, but keep in mind an original ES-330 is also a short scale instrument.

 

very interesting project though.

Please do keep us updated.

the Motorcyclist in me has loved carbon fiber for quite a long time, then you add that to fact that Im a Gibson fan boy....

[Citizen_Insane]

The one I'm building will have a 24.75" Scale length. Same as an ES-335. I'm not trying to build an exact copy, for that I'd need to be working with wood There really aren't all that many blueprints available online for gibson archtops, so I'm playing it by ear, taking measurements from my Sheraton II and sort of making it up as I go along. Like you can see, the guitar is going to be modeled in CAD before assembly so that should give me a good idea of how things will work out.

[Citizen_Insane]

Update time.

 

I had the mold finished a few weeks ago and now I've moved on to building tops.

 

Here's me looking awkward while holding the mold for a promo shot (for the Engineering dept). You can see I'm leaning on the CNC I used to build it, a Milltronics MM18.

 

Next I did a test top using glass (since it's cheaper than CF). No pictures while building it, no one there to take pictures, but here's what the bagged mold looks like. Layup is like this: Mold (HDPE) -> Release Agent -> 20 layers glass alternating 0 degrees and 45 degrees symmetric to the center -> release film -> bleeder -> breather -> bag.

 

Now the moment of truth! Does it come out of the mold? The answer: YES!

[Citizen_Insane]

After cutting off the left over raw glass fibers, I measured my ratio and it looks like the ratio is 53% Glass, 47% Epoxy. Pretty damn good for my first ever composite part. The actual ratio is probably a little less, since there was slop in my measurements, but for a quick calculation, that should be fairly close. In a full-on production environment I might be able to hit 65% fiber, but there's no way I can do that and have quality parts building them by hand.

 

Anyway, here are some shots after cutting out the top shape w/ a bandsaw. Edges were then refined using an oscillating spindle sander.

 

 

 

 

Comparing this to my Sheraton II, the arch profile is almost exactly the same. I had thought that I would want more arching in the top, but maybe I don't need it. I have another piece of HDPE that I could cut and make a thicker mold. This one is 0.300" total depth. I could probably go up to 0.500". Something to think about.

 

Anyone have an opinion on the subject (more arching or not)?

[Deadbeat Son]

Looks like a great project; good luck!

 

To answer an earlier question that was never answered, an ES-335 has a mahogany neck.

[Citizen_Insane]

Cool. Thanks man. I'm thinking I'm going to build the neck out of CF. I've got a cad model ready to go, so I'm thinking that would be the best balance for the guitar. I worry that a wooden neck on a CF body would make the guitar neck heavy.

[roughtrade]

After cutting off the left over raw glass fibers, I measured my ratio and it looks like the ratio is 53% Glass, 47% Epoxy. Pretty damn good for my first ever composite part. The actual ratio is probably a little less, since there was slop in my measurements, but for a quick calculation, that should be fairly close. In a full-on production environment I might be able to hit 65% fiber, but there's no way I can do that and have quality parts building them by hand. Anyway, here are some shots after cutting out the top shape w/ a bandsaw. Edges were then refined using an oscillating spindle sander. Comparing this to my Sheraton II, the arch profile is almost exactly the same. I had thought that I would want more arching in the top, but maybe I don't need it. I have another piece of HDPE that I could cut and make a thicker mold. This one is 0.300" total depth. I could probably go up to 0.500". Something to think about. Anyone have an opinion on the subject (more arching or not)?

The back arch should be between 1/4 " and 3/8 " from level, I think. I don't believe I would arch the top more than 1/2 " from level. I am not a luthier, so take this with a cup of salt.

[timmay8612]

Very cool idea. If you like, CA Guitars makes carbon acoustic instruments, and IIRC when I played one, they had carbon necks, unless it was a wood neck with faux-carbon paint. Their website is down for the moment, but here is one on a retailer's site

 

http://www.makenmusic.com/product.cfm?prodID=1259&catID=3