Members soundcreation Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 Then shouldn't they be making tons of money if they are selling any guitars at all? They aren't. Perhaps they made a bad marketing decision? So what if they aren't making money. All that proves..if true...is that they don't know how to run a business. But that doesn't make a "premium pricing" policy wrong in and of itself. Is the distinction difficult for you to understand? Perhaps it's a combination of a premium pricing policy combined with lax QC resulting in a not better than average product, and a public that is finally waking up to the fact they can get more for less money elsewhere. When HJ turned the company around enough to bring back buyers and rebuild the credibility of the company, he did it by building a better product than before. It's quite logical to carry this further to think that he's swung to far in the other direction by charging too much for an average product. This worked at first because people were sucked in by the gibson name but is working less and less now. What you think "should" or "shouldn't" happen with the business model is irrelevant. It only matters what IS happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jkay Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 It is way more labor intensive making the body and setting the neck than a Fender. However, Agiles must have a similar build process and they are way cheaper than American Strats! Like others have said, it's more about what people are willing to pay for what is perceived to be the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaveGrima Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 I don't think glueing on a neck or putting on binding are really that hard. plenty of axes out there that cost just a few hundred bucks for the whole axe have flawless neck joints and binding. I don't buy it. Good point. An Epi Les Paul or hundreds of other set-neck, bound guitars that you can get for around $500 don't cost much more than a MIM Strat or Tele. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bigconig Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 Seriously-you don't see why a Strat would be cheaper to build than a Les Paul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bsman Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 Q:What else did you do? A: I said we are going to increase prices. Prices were ridiculously low. And people said, the price has been decreasing 20% a year, how can you reverse that? I said I'm just going to double the prices on a lot of models. I actually tested it and got an inverse price curve. Basically it showed that every time I raised prices a certain amount, volume would go up. You see? The price is what it is because masochistic dumb{censored}s sporting combustion marks on their pockets from the spontaneous combustion of large wads of cash continue to line up for the particular form of abuse that is Gibson's pricing policy "because Slash plays one..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Verne Andru Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 America is a capitalist society. Capitalism = maximum return on investment, which is what Gibson [and Fender/PRS/etc.] are doing. As long as the market is willing to pay a premium for "Gibson" on the headstock of their instruments, Gibson will continue to market their products that way. Me - I bought an Asian made LP knock-off from CL for $20, upgraded the pickups, did a setup and have a guitar that looks, feels, plays and sounds like a Gibson. No branding on the headstock, but I don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 Me - I bought an Asian made LP knock-off from CL for $20, upgraded the pickups, did a setup and have a guitar that looks, feels, plays and sounds like a Gibson. No branding on the headstock, but I don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members underivy Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 People are willing to pay more.Consumer Surplus This is an important factor. Conspicuous consumption could be another factor worth considering. A higher price gives the consumer an impression that they are paying for a premium instrument....even though it is mass produced in a factory and can be purchased at Best Buy. A lower price might "cheapen" the Gibson brand. I guess it's similar to why people buy Bose speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smorgdonkey Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 You see? The price is what it is because masochistic dumb{censored}s sporting combustion marks on their pockets from the spontaneous combustion of large wads of cash continue to line up for the particular form of abuse that is Gibson's pricing policy "because Slash plays one..." I wouldn't believe that. I don't recall those huge price increases. It is just playing with the psychology of people who were 'holding off' and making them think "I better buy one now". As I said: I don't recall these huge price increases or for that matter any price increases at all. Big suggested retail on certain special runs and so on but not $1 since 2005. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members catalinagooseV2 Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 are doing. As long as the market is willing to pay a premium for "Gibson" on the headstock of their instruments, Gibson will continue to market their products that way. Me - I bought an Asian made LP knock-off from CL for $20, upgraded the pickups, did a setup and have a guitar that looks, feels, plays and sounds like a Gibson. No branding on the headstock, but I don't care. There is always one in every Gibson thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smorgdonkey Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 I don't think glueing on a neck or putting on binding are really that hard. plenty of axes out there that cost just a few hundred bucks for the whole axe have flawless neck joints and binding. I don't buy it. Well, the time it takes just letting the neck joint dry costs money. The longer the process the more that the price goes up. The guitars that have all that stuff and only cost a few hundred bucks...what are the costs of the facilities which are building them? Hey, I'd love to sell computers for $200 brand new...the minute that I find out how I can make them for about $75 and pump out 100 or so a day I'll be all over it. You can get a Chinese man to hand polish lacquer all day long for about $1. What will anyone in North America do for $1? I recall a guy back in 1987 or so ordering a USA Jackson. You had to order what you wanted because there was no real standard model at the time. It was $2200. These 'worth it' issues are ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eddie Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 The quality of my Gibson Les Paul Standard is not an issue. But for the money it originally sold for, it should have had better features. I ended up paying $1300 for it new as the MF Stupid Deal and after a $500 rebate. Compared to other guitars I have played, the price vs features vs quality, the Gibson is a bit over priced at $1300 - I have owned other guitars that were slightly better at around $1000 but were imported. I did a side by side comparison of that LP with a Hamer Monaco Elite. Prices were "similar" but the Hamer had better wood, better hardware, better quality, etc.I ended up paying even less for my Standard, since it had a few scratches. Even though it was an amazing deal, I sold it quickly and kept the Hamer.Another nice Gibson deal was the Classic Antique for $1000. Some people got it for $800. I also sold mine, but those prices were what I was willing to spend on a brand new Gibson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jkater Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 My Gary Moore signature Les Paul has no binding at all. When they came up in 2000/2001, there were almost the same price as a standard (see german price list below in deutsche mark/euro). True, the GM is much more a Standard than it is a studio but still, the boundless construction should have lowered the price more than it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Verne Andru Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 There is always one in every Gibson thread Interesting reactions. I'm in the trade and know what this stuff costs and cost-of-goods is probably close to the bottom of the list when it comes to what some companies charge for their merchandise.Sorry folks, there is no magic mojo to having a specific "brand" name on a piece of wood with metal bits. As long as the maker follows the formula, the end result is pretty close to being the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 Interesting reactions. I'm in the trade and know what this stuff costs and cost-of-goods is probably close to the bottom of the list when it comes to what some companies charge for their merchandise.Sorry folks, there is no magic mojo to having a specific "brand" name on a piece of wood with metal bits. As long as the maker follows the formula, the end result is pretty close to being the same. But you also said this about a Fab amp - "The amp build itself was top-notch. Super clean solder joints, well laid out components. Solid construction with super attention to those little details that count." - so it's pretty hard to take your evaluation of a piece of guitar gear seriously. :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Verne Andru Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 But you also said this about a Fab amp - "The amp build itself was top-notch. Super clean solder joints, well laid out components. Solid construction with super attention to those little details that count." - so it's pretty hard to take your evaluation of a piece of guitar gear seriously. :poke: The amp I saw was as I described. His early stuff was probably like every other builders early stuff - rough around the edges. But some of you have been completely off-base in not allowing people to improve with time. Some of you people to need to get a life - seriously. Brand marketing is just that - BRAND marketing. The products are always secondary to the BRAND. Proctor and Gambles has taken it to a high art, as has IBM, Gibson, Fender, etc. Pay a premium for a "brand" name if you want. Many do. I won't when I have a chance, and keep the extra money for other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Verne Andru Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 Here's a picture of Les Paul's "log" - none too pretty, but it did evolve into the Gibson Les Paul:If you ever get a chance to see a picture of Leo Fenders first electric guitar, it's even rougher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Acid Test Posted April 1, 2010 Author Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 The amp I saw was as I described. His early stuff was probably like every other builders early stuff - rough around the edges. But some of you have been completely off-base in not allowing people to improve with time. Some of you people to need to get a life - seriously.Brand marketing is just that - BRAND marketing. The products are always secondary to the BRAND. Proctor and Gambles has taken it to a high art, as has IBM, Gibson, Fender, etc.Pay a premium for a "brand" name if you want. Many do. I won't when I have a chance, and keep the extra money for other things. Tide is one of Proctor and Gambles top name brands. As a chemist, I happen to know a little about the research that is done with their brands and the surprising technology that is in every cup or scoop of Tide. You would be shocked to learn about the countless dollars and tests they have done on this product, one of several they make, test and improve regularly. The result is a superior laundry detergent, oh by the way, which happens to have earned its top sales position for reasons well beyond its name recognition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Verne Andru Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 So are you saying "brand" marketing has nothing to do with P&G's sales strategy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Donzi Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 Don't forget, someone has to pay for the years (decades) of lawyers/lawsuits/cases that kept your Gibson Les Paul...a Gibson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Acid Test Posted April 1, 2010 Author Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 So are you saying "brand" marketing has nothing to do with P&G's sales strategy? You are the only one writing that. Weren't you also the one hyping those cheap Crate tube heads for a while? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members metallica_00 Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 Here's a good comp: a Heritage H150 made in the old gibson factory, about as close to actual Gibson as you're going to get - but without much branding or marketing behind it. Around $1800 for a new last I checked. So not far off your 1500 mark but not far off Gibson prices either. There is a big difference between having a good product and a good company. Gibson has a strong product with premium pricing due to the name brand (and really, they are pretty good guitars). But their financial managment is horrible. Since they haven't completed 2008 financials (which is egregious), they are in technical default, so they can't access their credit line. And they're getting hurt by the economy so sales are down. Debt coverage is actually solid, and they're operating cash flow positive, so I think making guitars isn't the problem it's the other stuff. FYI this is not me speculating on their financials, that's all from a Feb. 24 moodys report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lp_junkie Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 You are forgetting that Gibson is built by Good Ol' Bubba Ray right here in Nashville where he gets paid $XX and hour. A lot of the other brands are foreign made where the same amount Bubba makes an hour is what the overseas worker makes in a week. Aside from the differences in construction techniques and materials, you pay a premium because they are banking on hero worship and nostalgia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Verne Andru Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 Weren't you also the one hyping those cheap Crate tube heads for a while? Why, yes I was. Great amps with a few mods: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=2118282 And their little 5 watt V8 turned out pretty good as well: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20597125 Just goes to prove my point that you don't have to pay a fortune for a good product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Verne Andru Posted April 1, 2010 Members Share Posted April 1, 2010 You are forgetting that Gibson is built by Good Ol' Bubba Ray right here in Nashville where he gets paid $XX and hour.A lot of the other brands are foreign made where the same amount Bubba makes an hour is what the overseas worker makes in a week.Aside from the differences in construction techniques and materials, you pay a premium because they are banking on hero worship and nostalgia. That's why the Heritage post before this one is probably the better comparison. But the reality is that "globalization" has moved production away from ConUS and profits are found by building cheap and selling high. Hagstrom is a great example of a well made Asian instrument vs Gibson. The difference in quality is negligible, yet the price differentiation is astronomical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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