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Why do lap steels typically have no intonation adjustment ability?


SiloScience

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Pardon my crappy grammar. I was raised on public schooling, Warner Bros. Saturday morning cartoons, and fast food (so what's your excuse?). :)

 

Anyhow, recently I have been informed by my Dr. at the VA that I must give up guitar playing (old shoulder injury that is not getting any better ... in fact a referral to the pain clinic is the next step). Do you have ANY idea how much that crushes a person? After skulking around and whining about it like a little punk for a few days, I remembered Perry.

 

Perry was literally the kid across the street that I knew in High School (late 70's) who was diagnosed with "Osgood Shlater's disease" in his knees. A calcium deposit issue or something. I don't know if I spelled that right, but in short his doc told him he had to quit riding a bicycle completely. This was 1976, the absolute height of the birth of the newest crazes ... BMX racing and skateboarding. Urethane wheels had only just come out for 'boards and all new rthings were possible. It was a grand time for either sport. Glad I was there :)

 

So anyway, Perry just couldn't quit riding .. something .. anything. So, he took up the unicycle. It wasn't a "bicycle", so in his mind he was being obedient to his doc's orders. A bit of a stretch on them, but technically he wasn't riding a "bike". That dude could do more shit on a friggin one-wheeler than a lot of kids could do a skateboard! I was inspired by the memory of my friend Perry......

 

So I decided to convert my axes to lap-steels. My shoulder thing is from the weight of the axe around my neck. So I just plopped my Tele on a keyboard stand and called it soup. So far it's been a 100% success. It's weird, a $139 Dean Evo with a completely shit neck ... just jacked up the TOM, raised the pickups a little bit, and BANG .... one baddassed lap steel! Those dark/hot pickups work very well for that Ben Harper and the Relentless Seven type sound. Yummy. My SG works well in this manner as well.

 

:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :bor: :bor:

 

Anyhow ... :poke: ... (sorry for the poke ... just seeing if you were awake!) my question is: Why is it on most lap steels there is no provision to adjust intonation? Even some of the "hot rod" parts for Teles to convert them to slide-only use include a one-piece *bar* replacement saddle for vintage Tele bridges.

 

Just because we're using a *movable fret* doesn't negate intonation needs ... um ... or does it?

 

Duh. :)

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Just because we're using a *movable fret* doesn't negate intonation needs ... um ... or does it?


Duh.
:)

 

sorry to hear that - sounds like a good work around though.

 

There is no real need for intonation as you are not playing fretted chords or notes on a lap steel. Even when you play open strings with "fretted" strings, you are adjusting pitch by "fretting" with the slide.

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Because there is no action issue and truss rod and therefore the strings are (theoretically) always of the same length. Unlike on the standard electric guitar where one might want to change the action thus making the strings longer or shorter.

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sorry to hear that - sounds like a good work around though.


There is no real need for intonation as you are not playing fretted chords or notes on a lap steel. Even when you play open strings with "fretted" strings, you are adjusting pitch by "fretting" with the slide.

True, but you are adjusting the pitch in relation to the unfretted strings manually "on the fly" so to speak ....what of the strings under the slide? Don't they have to have constant lengths all the way up and down the fretboard?

 

I mean, it seems as though it isn't any different than playing a bar-chord on a guitar with lousy intonation ... the chord will be in tune when played on frets near the nut, but at (let's say) fret 12+ the bar chord will begin to detune in relation to the notes that are played ... right?

 

Er ... no?

 

Oh, and thanks for the props on the work around. It ain't perfect, but that's racing dang it! :)

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Besides, even if it was intonation adjustable, you're still playing by ear. If something's out of tune it's all your fault.

Well yea, but that statement only applies to the entire group of strings in relation to the song/other players. It doesn't apply to the tuning relationship from string to string.

 

But anyhow, I think I'm starting to get it now ...

 

So, that said, do I "equalize" the string lengths on my SG and Tele then?

 

:)

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Hmmm...most lap steels I've seen and the three that I have all have intonation adjustment available on them. Yes, you would want that because the bar is supposed to be at a 90 degree angle across the frets. Same as a guitar. The actual fret is perpandicular to the strings...really? Do I have to expain this? Without intonation adjustment, even with a lap steel, playing multiple strings at once would result in bad intonation. Some of the old ones have just a bar at the bridge...they work fine if the quality is good (think accoustic guitars).

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Besides, even if it was intonation adjustable, you're still playing by ear. If something's out of tune it's all your fault.

 

 

That's true if you're playing one string at a time. If you're playing chords you don't think intonation is necessary?

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Well, theoretically, yes, you would still like your intonation to be spot on. Even though YOU control the pitch with the bar, and can micro adjust, you really want to develop muscle memory to be able to play on key, say, even on a loud stage where you cant even hear yourself. You will have to rely soley on your accuracy of bar placement to hopefully be on key. This is very common with string players in large orchestras. Many times the orchestra is so loud on stage, the fiddle players cant even hear their own instruments. They have developed such perfect muscle memory, that it doesnt matter if they are on pitch, they nail the notes anyway because their hands know the exact sweet spots. THIS is what you should be striving for as well. Use your ears to help you develop the muscle memory to always find those sweet spots, then after awhile you wont need to worry about hearing yourself 100% all the time, because if you ever play out in a band type situation, there WILL be times when you cant hear yourself, no big deal on a cheater instrument with frets like a guitar, just press the right fret and you are in tune, you will have to rely on muscle memory and proper bar placement for lap or pedal steel, and the only way to get the accuracy is to either play with the intonation set as close as possible to perfect, or use the exact same improperly intonated instrument every time for the rest of your playing days, which, the latter, I dont reccomend.

 

So, NO, it is not neccesary if you are going to rely 100% on your ears to always dial in the pitch by manipulating the bar, on the fly, but I personally think this is a sub par way of goijng about it for reasons

I have always mentioned. You will ALWAYS have to devote some portion of your concentration to making sure you are spot on with pitch by intonating via adjusting the bar on the fly, where that concentration could have been spent in other areas like creativity and musical performance if you pre developed perfect bar placement on your properly intonated instrument.

 

Intonate your guitar as perfect as possible, get a new bridge or new saddles if you need to, and then learn the positions using your ear to dial in perfection, until you have the spots so nailed down, you dont even need to hear yourself anymore to be spot on. Think as if there will be alot of times you wont be able to hear yourself, and you will always be spot on.

 

Dont listen to all the fools that say intonating a fretless instrument is not important. :lol:

 

they are fools. FOOLS I say.:mad::poke::cop::facepalm::p:lol:

 

Change the bridge position on a classical violinist, you can even TELL them you are doing it, and then sit back and laugh as they struggle to dial in perfect pitch for a week or so because something is just a little "off" with their pitch as compared to previous weeks when their bridge was in another spot. They have to re-learn the new positions, and I am talking tiny, wee small, variations, but on a violin, that is all the difference you need to be either spot on or off. You have a little more wiggle room with a guitar which is why you MIGHT be able to get away with NOT perfectly dialing in your intonation, but I would err on the side of caution or you will be building muscle memory for the WRONG spots on your guitar. You may be close, and you may be spot on on YOUR improperly intonated guiar, but switch to a better intonated guitar and your positions that you would normally play wont be so perfect anymore.

 

And all this doesnt even GET into reasons for perfect intonation such as neffrock's post above covers: playing multiple strings at once. Read that post too. Dude is right.

 

Hope we have convinced you that accurately intonating ANY instrument, even fretless ones is important.

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Agree with all above.

And add that I think the fact that a Steel is tuned to a chord and not 4ths might be the answer.

 

There is plenty of debate in Steel Guitar circles about the tuning of the 3rd note in the chord. Some say ET and some JT.

I tune ET. Thats the way Buddy Emmons does it.:)

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Hmmm...most lap steels I've seen and the three that I have all have intonation adjustment available on them. Yes, you would want that because the bar is supposed to be at a 90 degree angle across the frets. Same as a guitar. The actual fret is perpandicular to the strings...really? Do I have to expain this? Without intonation adjustment, even with a lap steel, playing multiple strings at once would result in bad intonation. Some of the old ones have just a bar at the bridge...they work fine if the quality is good (think accoustic guitars).

This is kinda where I'm at with it. Personally, I think lap steels with little or no intonation adjustability is more of an issue of economics than necessity.

 

I mean, the different strings stretch at different rates along the length of the scale, don't they? Well, that implies that individual string intonation settings are still required. Simple intonation settings require you to make each string tune to the nut as well as fret 12, regardless of actual mechanical length. I mean, a barred chord has to be in tune at the nut and at any other fret ... right? And isn't a slide just a metal/glass/whatever finger making a barred chored?

 

As far as not "detuning" your slide placement by stretching the strings accidently .. it's not possible. The strings will always be a bit "bent" where-ever the slide is applied. Especially with a guitar that has been converted .. because the nut is filed to give the strings the same "radius" as the fretboard, to overcome that radius you need to press a down a bit on the strings so as to contact all 6 at once.

 

I've just always thought that lap steels use "straight" bridges because they are cheaper to make. And there is little/no setup at the factory that way either. Also, actual lap steels (as opposed to converted guitars) have such short scales that intonation can be "faked" a bit with just an angle-adjustable bar-type bridge. So that's why I've always thought they had bridges that ignored individual string length adjustments.

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Agree with all above.

And add that I think the fact that a Steel is tuned to a chord and not 4ths might be the answer.


There is plenty of debate in Steel Guitar circles about the tuning of the 3rd note in the chord. Some say ET and some JT.

I tune ET. Thats the way Buddy Emmons does it.
:)

I'm not that smart. I just tune to open G (I think that's what it is called ... DGDGBD). Sometimes I'll flat that B to an A# for a minor chord sound. That's it. Dum and easy.

 

I've also tried tweaking everything up an entire whole step. This makes the strings much tighter and responsive to the slide, as well as lets me "dig in" a little more before rattling the frets. And the extra tension makes it easier to use a heavier brass slide (grittier tone) over the *easier to handle/less prone to rattle* glass slides.

 

It's actually been kinda working a bit. I'm left handed, but play right handed. So "teaching" my left hand to be dexterous with the slide has been a no brainer .. er a right brainer ... haa!

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OK dude... sounds like you're on the right track.

I come from a few years playing pedal steel.

Steel guitar dosen't need staggered saddles because it is tuned to a chord.

Now when you play on a fret position, you need to take in .."parallex error".

That means you need to play a bit sharp to what you see where the fret marker is.

 

You prob already know that .

 

So there is ear training in there as well.

 

I spent 30yrs playing fiddle and that sharpened up my ear.

 

Been through some jazz guitar lessons from Don Andrews..Major guitar player...Teacher. He studied under Segovia classically and is a jazz Guitar master... In his mid '80's now and as sharp as a tack.

Now buzzing on Steel guit.

Played a festival 2 days last weekend.

Lots of feedback on my playing...and all positive. Woohoo.

I'm inspired again.

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Lots already covered, but I'll toss in with my 2c. The correct answer is, all the above, yes, no, and maybe.

 

Depending on the tuning and scale length, a steel can benefit from some intonation on tunings where you have a big difference / gap in string gauges. Take open E for example, gauges would be something like 15, 20, 24, 30, 38, 56 where as the popular / common C6 would be 15, 17, 20, 24, 30, 36. In the E example, that big jump from 38 to 56 is a little tougher to compensate for just using the bar where in the C6 example, a strait bar and bridge is just fine.

Historically, the popular tunings of the day like C6, A6, A Major, and E7 all use a fairly graduated sting set and worked fine with a strait bridge.

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Hope we have convinced you that accurately intonating ANY instrument, even fretless ones is important.

 

 

On fretless guitars, basses, violins, yes- of course. You're still stretching the strings. On a lap steel, I suppose you could argue that the weight of the bar and the act of putting it in contact with the strings would stretch them a bit. Dunno if it's enough to worry about as you still have to listen, and being slightly off can be very expressive on steels. It's also expressive on violins, playing some notes slightly flat on purpose.

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Theoretically, you are correct. In practicality tho, an non-intonateble bridge is good enough. The only real string length adustment theorecally needed would be to compensate for the different thicknesses of string. And most would do this just by slanting the bridge a slightly. But even then, since its a non fretted instr, prob not really necc.

Ive owned & played old style wrap-around bridge non adj elec guitars, and if the bridge is correctly placed and its set up well, its not an issue for me even then. I can go out of tune by just how hard I fret the string than any slight saddle placement issue. Close enough is close enough.

I have a Chandler lap at home. Its just a simple straight bridge, cant remeber if theres any slant to it. Ill check it tonight.

The issue of the 3rd(the B string issue) comes into play even on a fully intonateable fretted guitar. Most players compensate the B string tuning to taste.

 

Do you need to set you saddles straight across? I woudnt think so. Sould be fine as is, as long as the open chord sounds right. When intonation is mostly up to your technique and ear, its just whatever your used to really.

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Pardon my crappy grammar. I was raised on public schooling, Warner Bros. Saturday morning cartoons, and fast food (so what's your excuse?).
:)

Anyhow, recently I have been informed by my Dr. at the VA that I must give up guitar playing (old shoulder injury that is not getting any better ... in fact a referral to the pain clinic is the next step). Do you have ANY idea how much that crushes a person? After skulking around and whining about it like a little punk for a few days, I remembered Perry.


Perry was literally the kid across the street that I knew in High School (late 70's) who was diagnosed with "Osgood Shlater's disease" in his knees. A calcium deposit issue or something. I don't know if I spelled that right, but in short his doc told him he had to quit riding a bicycle completely. This was 1976, the absolute height of the birth of the newest crazes ... BMX racing and skateboarding. Urethane wheels had only just come out for 'boards and all new rthings were possible. It was a grand time for either sport. Glad I was there
:)

So anyway, Perry just couldn't quit riding .. something .. anything. So, he took up the unicycle. It wasn't a "bicycle", so in his mind he was being obedient to his doc's orders. A bit of a stretch on them, but technically he wasn't riding a "bike". That dude could do more shit on a friggin one-wheeler than a lot of kids could do a skateboard! I was inspired by the memory of my friend Perry......


So I decided to convert my axes to lap-steels. My shoulder thing is from the weight of the axe around my neck. So I just plopped my Tele on a keyboard stand and called it soup. So far it's been a 100% success. It's weird, a $139 Dean Evo with a completely shit neck ... just jacked up the TOM, raised the pickups a little bit, and BANG .... one baddassed lap steel! Those dark/hot pickups work very well for that Ben Harper and the Relentless Seven type sound. Yummy. My SG works well in this manner as well.


:blah:
:blah:
:blah:
:blah:
:bor:
:bor:


Anyhow ... :poke: ... (sorry for the poke ... just seeing if you were awake!) my question is: Why is it on most lap steels there is no provision to adjust intonation? Even some of the "hot rod" parts for Teles to convert them to slide-only use include a one-piece *bar* replacement saddle for vintage Tele bridges.


Just because we're using a *movable fret* doesn't negate intonation needs ... um ... or does it?


Duh.
:)

 

Others here have adequately addressed your intonation question.

 

But my question for you is: why not just sit down to play? Seems to me you don't have to give up playing if the problem is just the weight of the guitar hanging from the strap over your shoulder. Ain't no shame in sittin' and playin'. I know if I was told that I couldn't stand and play that's what I'd do.

Don't give up. I mean, sure, learn lap steel. It's a cool instrument. But you don't have to give up playing "Spanish" style.

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On fretless guitars, basses, violins, yes- of course. You're still stretching the strings. On a lap steel, I suppose you could argue that the weight of the bar and the act of putting it in contact with the strings would stretch them a bit. Dunno if it's enough to worry about as you still have to listen, and being slightly off can be very expressive on steels. It's also expressive on violins, playing some notes slightly flat on purpose.

 

 

The only time being out of tune is EVER expressive and correct, is when it is controlled by the artist tobe that way for effect, on purpose. MAYBE, maybe you could use an example of an old out of tune piano for playing honkey tonk or some old ragtime or something, but I am not sure I could ever condone an instrument being out of tune all the time a good thing. a song or two here for effect can be cool, but an instrument that WONT play in tune due to improper intonation= no thanks, for me.

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if the problem is the weight from the guitar around your neck...... then cant you still play sitting down?

 

I had been wondering the same thing.

 

I would have also thought that lap steel playing requires more arm (and shoulder) movement than normal guitar playing. :idk:

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Others here have adequately addressed your intonation question.


But my question for you is: why not just sit down to play? Seems to me you don't have to give up playing if the problem is just the weight of the guitar hanging from the strap over your shoulder. Ain't no shame in sittin' and playin'. I know if I was told that I couldn't stand and play that's what I'd do.

Don't give up. I mean, sure, learn lap steel. It's a cool instrument. But you don't have to give up playing "Spanish" style.

It's not the weight. It's the way that a guitar body sorta kicks-out the elbow .. it's that motion that screws with me. I don't notice it for a little bit but after about 30 minutes the pain behind my shoulder blade is best described as ~fire~. Very local ... like pinpoint local. The VA told me they'd have to remove my uppermost/right/front rib (through the armpit) to correct it. 1 year recoup and only 70% recovery are to be expected. Pfft ... trying to put that off for as long as possible. Had 4 people in the VA tell me to do without that surgery for as long as absolutely possible.

 

I built an "orthopedic Tele" to deal with the shoulder/angle issue. So far it seems to be working. A severe chop on the upper edge of the body (a la Explorer) allows my arm to rest against my torso, eliminating the *elbow kick-out* thang. It ain't pretty ... but pretty is as pretty does, sir. :)

 

So I may have worked out a reasonable workaround. :) Time will tell.

 

Interesting conversation, nontheless! Thank you. :thu: I learned a lot!

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