Members Philter Posted May 21, 2010 Members Share Posted May 21, 2010 I'm wiring up a new studio and trying to make it someone future-proof. Everything seems to be pointing to RJ45 jacks and Cat 5e/6 cabling. I would love to hear about anyone who is using this technology, and what products or techniques have worked for them. For example... RJ45 patch bays- I notice that two industries sell them, one to telephony, and one to musicians. The ones marketed to musicians are more expensive by a factor of five. WHY? Is this just the usual "this gold plated cable will make ur gitar sound phat?" It looks like this technology will let me have a remote USB keyboard and HDMI monitor out in the live room so my drummer friend can cut tracks while controlling the main recording rig remotely. What else can I do with this kind of connectivity? Can you recommend products? Tell me some tricks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted May 21, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 What RJ45 patchbay is sold to musicians? That's a new one on me. It turns out that a pair of UTP (Unshielded/Universal Twisted Pair) Ethernet cable has a characteristic impedance of right around 110 ohms, which makes it good for interconnecting AES/EBU devices, but these days that tends to be pretty much limited to high end converters, so maybe they figure those people got lots of left over money. The monitor and keyboard extenders involve hardware on each end and they aren't real cheap yet. If you're building new walls, by all means put a couple of pieces of Cat 5e cable in them and leave the ends where you can find them if you need them. That'll only cost a few bucks. Then use them when the time comes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Philter Posted May 22, 2010 Author Members Share Posted May 22, 2010 What RJ45 patchbay is sold to musicians? That's a new one on me. It turns out that a pair of UTP (Unshielded/Universal Twisted Pair) Ethernet cable has a characteristic impedance of right around 110 ohms, which makes it good for interconnecting AES/EBU devices, but these days that tends to be pretty much limited to high end converters, so maybe they figure those people got lots of left over money. Check this out Mike: http://www.aviom.com/Product-Categories-6/Accessories-32/PB28-Modular-Patch-Bay The monitor and keyboard extenders involve hardware on each end and they aren't real cheap yet. If you're building new walls, by all means put a couple of pieces of Cat 5e cable in them and leave the ends where you can find them if you need them. That'll only cost a few bucks. Then use them when the time comes.Here's an HDMI extender, $119. USB over Cat5/5e/6 Extension Cable RJ45 Adapter Set$15 I think the Chinese got in on the action. edit: I am still planning on using normal wiring for the audio signals. But those dirt cheap uses for CAT5/5e cables have me excited and wondering what I haven't even thought of yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted May 22, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted May 22, 2010 Check this out Mike:http://www.aviom.com/Product-Categories-6/Accessories-32/PB28-Modular-Patch-Bay Well, the Ethernet version uses the Neutrik EtherCon connectors, which is an RJ45 in an XLR shell. It's also multi-functional in that you can get blocks of 8 XLRs for either analog audio or AES/EBU on the front and DB-25 or XLR connectors on the back. No wonder it's expensive. Here's an HDMI extender, $119. USB over Cat5/5e/6 Extension Cable RJ45 Adapter Set$15 Well, $119 to extend your monitor is kind of expensive, but it gets the job done. I guess that's not too bad. Gefen makes a lot of that stuff. The $15 MIDI adapter doesn't look like it has any powering so I'm guessing that they're just relying on the low capacitance of the cable to get them by. I have a 100 foot MIDI cable that I bought from Conquest many years ago. It's built just like a standard MIDI cable but from a low capacitance cable that doesn't round off the edges of the waveform. They also sold longer-than-spec RS-232 and VGA cables made from the same stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the stranger Posted May 22, 2010 Members Share Posted May 22, 2010 Amazon is pretty much the first place I check for anything these days. And the cables I've gotten have been a great deal and have been above average quality. They skip fancy packaging and pass on the savings. Works for me. The same cables that are lower quality cost 3 times as much at any big box store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Philter Posted May 22, 2010 Author Members Share Posted May 22, 2010 Well, the Ethernet version uses the Neutrik EtherCon connectors, which is an RJ45 in an XLR shell. It's also multi-functional in that you can get blocks of 8 XLRs for either analog audio or AES/EBU on the front and DB-25 or XLR connectors on the back. No wonder it's expensive. Well, $119 to extend your monitor is kind of expensive, but it gets the job done. I guess that's not too bad. Gefen makes a lot of that stuff. The $15 MIDI adapter doesn't look like it has any powering so I'm guessing that they're just relying on the low capacitance of the cable to get them by. I have a 100 foot MIDI cable that I bought from Conquest many years ago. It's built just like a standard MIDI cable but from a low capacitance cable that doesn't round off the edges of the waveform. They also sold longer-than-spec RS-232 and VGA cables made from the same stuff. Can I just wire my own setup to run balanced audio signals over cat6 cables? What's the downside? If I bought two blank patch bays, what's to stop me from connecting them with cat6 cable? The hole that I would have to put through my walls to connect them would be so much tinier than with a giant snake cable, and it would cost much less as well. If it can carry high def video hundreds of feet, how about audio? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Philter Posted May 22, 2010 Author Members Share Posted May 22, 2010 Amazon is pretty much the first place I check for anything these days. And the cables I've gotten have been a great deal and have been above average quality. They skip fancy packaging and pass on the savings. Works for me. The same cables that are lower quality cost 3 times as much at any big box store. For a laugh, look at the cables in WalMart some time. You can buy a $5 coffee maker or a $5 pair of shoes, but for some reason every cable is a gold plated, $25 name brand rip off. I never understood that. I've taken to making a big cable order off the web every couple of months so I'm never caught short and forced to get ripped off in a brick and mortar store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted May 22, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted May 22, 2010 Can I just wire my own setup to run balanced audio signals over cat6 cables? Sure, that works fine. The twisted pairs are very well constructed so you'll get all the common mode rejection that balanced inputs can offer, but unless you use a shielded Ethernet cable it won't be worth a hoot for unbalanced connections. I don't think I'd use it as mic cable just on general principles, but I expect it's been tried. If it can carry high def video hundreds of feet, how about audio? Video requires much wider bandwidth than analog audio, which means lower capacitance between conductors, and also between conductors and shield if any. They do that by using thicker insulation or smaller conductors. Audio doesn't have that problem, but unless you have good differential inputs connected to accurately balanced outputs (and I've seen some that are pretty far "off balance"), your connections could be noisy. Of course that's true in any case, but usually audio cables are individually shielded, which is what makes snakes fat and expensive. Cat7 cable is made of four individually shielded pairs but it's usually used only for 10 gigabit Ethernet and is priced accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted May 22, 2010 Members Share Posted May 22, 2010 What type of RJ45 data link you want to use? - RJ-41S 8P8C (universal)- RJ-45S: 8P2C (coded)- RJ-48S: 8P8C (DDS) How do you code the digital audio to be transfered?From where to where get the digital audio data transfered?How do you wanna a/d d/a convert the digital audio data sent thru RJ?What kind of converter devices do you have in mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Philter Posted May 22, 2010 Author Members Share Posted May 22, 2010 What type of RJ45 data link you want to use?- RJ-41S 8P8C (universal)- RJ-45S: 8P2C (coded)- RJ-48S: 8P8C (DDS)How do you code the digital audio to be transfered?From where to where get the digital audio data transfered?How do you wanna a/d d/a convert the digital audio data sent thru RJ?What kind of converter devices do you have in mind? I had nothing in mind and everything was left to fate. If the stars align maybe fate will compel you to offer something up. Actually Mike has me thinking about going analog. Analog sounds better according to 14/27 bear cats. You know, I have a CD of the Twin Peaks soundtrack somewhere that has been autographed by the composer as a thank you for your help with surround sound a while back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the stranger Posted May 22, 2010 Members Share Posted May 22, 2010 I could sell you a nice hardly used Yamaha cassette deck for mastering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the stranger Posted May 22, 2010 Members Share Posted May 22, 2010 It's an extra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted May 22, 2010 Members Share Posted May 22, 2010 well stranger, i will tell you how that all can be done, but first I have to talk to the persons who knows how the studio is set up, i have no clue how they did it, i simply sit on my workstation and do my work, one thing i know, all projects are stored on a central hard drive array, sometimes i work with project data which is on this central hard drives, sometimes i drag&drop the project to my local workstation for working... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted May 23, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted May 23, 2010 What type of RJ45 data link you want to use?- RJ-41S 8P8C (universal)- RJ-45S: 8P2C (coded)- RJ-48S: 8P8C (DDS)How do you code the digital audio to be transfered?From where to where get the digital audio data transfered?How do you wanna a/d d/a convert the digital audio data sent thru RJ?What kind of converter devices do you have in mind? That's really not important as long as you pick a wiring standard and sticks to it. I'm pretty sure all of them keep the twisted pairs as pairs. All you need for AES/EBU is two wires. It's nice if the characteristic impedance is close to 110 ? to avoid jitter caused by reflections and their associated standing waves. UTP is close enough for jazz. The data (assuming this is what he's after) will be AES/EBU, which usually comes out of and goes into an XLR connector on the back of and A/D or D/A converter-in-a-box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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