Lets Do this RIGHT. The Official Page Vrs. Clapton Battle.

[DaveAronow]

Now, wind forward to 1:50 and listen to the solo:

 

OW!!! :eek:

 

My EARS!!! :cry:

 

MY EARS!!! :cry:

 

Ill GET you for this you sonofabitch!!!

[john_p_t]

It's {censored}ing horrible, isn't it?

[scuzzo]

[YOUTUBE]u8hLc_nqx8g[/YOUTUBE]

well lets see.. at this time this kinda stuff captured the time..
Jack Bruce on Bass
Ginger Baker drums
EC on Guitar..

a nice controlled jam... i really like this tune... and the lyrics are fantastic..
its a freaking masterpiece... by great musicans not GODS.. but really cool players..

[JoeFender]

It's {censored}ing horrible, isn't it?

 

 

See Puff Daddy video above

[BoneNut]

Another thing is that Clapton actually paid royalties and credit to the original Blues artists on his albums.

What as ass! He could at least waited until he was sued and taken to court before paying them! After all, he could have got away with plagiarism on a few songs like Page did.

[JoeFender]

Yeah, both of those Page and Plant albums are good, and the tours were fantastic. Trouble with the "what has he done since the 80s that's good?" argument is that, actually, he just hasn't done very much at all; he's been more or less semi retired since Zep. Of the few things he has got round to doing, a fair amount of it is pretty good. For me, despite being primarily a guitarist myself, I can't really listen to music just for guitar playing alone. There has to be something more than that going on to engage my interest. I've never heard that something more in Clapton. Even with Cream; the only thing I like about that band is Jack Bruce.

This make no sense. Clapton writes, sings and plays guitar. Page plays guitar. "can't really listen to music for guitar playing alone", but that's what you get with Page. Doooh!!!

So if we have a choice of listening to "Stairway" for the 1,000,000,000,000th time, or hearing something done in the last decade, you pick "Stairway". Your choice. Lots of people choose differently.

[john_p_t]

This make no sense. Clapton writes, sings and plays guitar. Page plays guitar. "can't really listen to music for guitar playing alone", but that's what you get with Page. Doooh!!!

Eh? What, there's nothing else going on on those records?

So if we have a choice of listening to "Stairway" for the 1,000,000,000,000th time, or hearing something done in the last decade, you pick "Stairway". Your choice. Lots of people choose differently.

I really dislike Stairway, as it happens. And I listen to far more new music than old music these days.

[JoeFender]

Hmmm? D: Edit.... I DID say that Clapton=blows but that was just my interpretation of what the poll results revealed, AND... well, OK, was meant to provoke a little bit of this:poke:, you know, for fun. Clapton gets constantly rated and praised as a "Guitar GOD". He is NOT. That is all I am saying, and if I am going to make a statement like that, I am prepared to list reasons why I dissagree with it, which I did. That is pretty much all we have going on here, but some feelings seem to be getting hurt so, I appologhize about that. I dont expect ANYONE to change their opinion on him one way or the other based on what MY opinion is.... I am just being one of the vocal millions that doesnt think he is a GOD. Unless there is something to be said for the art of the lullaby. In THAT sense he is an ABSOLUTE IMMORTAL GOD!!!

Besides the cheap shot at the end, this mostly makes sense. I don't believe he's a God. He himself doesn't believe it, and tried his best to get away from it. I also don't believe Page is a God, although he was a pretty good guitar player at one time.

I see the appeal, I've recent bought "It Might Get Loud", and "Mothership" and enjoy them both *A LOT* lately.

But I don't feel I need to listen to certain players or styles of music exclusively, I like a lot of different kinds of music. I went through a long phase in the 80's where I only listened to ::gasp:: country, western-swing, and Tex-Mex kinda stuff. My neighbor was in a band, played guitar and fiddle and we jammed, and had a ball with it.

To sum up, my feelings aren't getting hurt, and I get your sense of humor and pot-stirring nature as I've read your posts for a long time. I have no problems with it.

[JoeFender]

Eh? What, there's nothing else going on on those records? I really dislike Stairway, as it happens. And I listen to far more new music than old music these days.

There was plenty going on by the other members of the band. That's what made them great. Page was a great guitar player, but was pretty stuck on pentatonics himself, which is a criticism I hear about Clapton all the time. And Page didn't/doesn't write or sing. He was also an awesome producer. That's where his talents lie. No shame in that, not everyone can do it all. :poke:

The point I was making is I dislike a lot of Clapton stuff, and some Zep stuff too. I'd rather hear "Stairway" than "Wonderful Tonight", or ""Lay Down Sally" again. But for Zeppelin, the Eastern alternate tuning stuff doesn't do a lot for me. Creative? -yes. Different? - yes. Boring and irritating? - yes. YMMV.

[john_p_t]

I think he's really the last person you could accuse of being stuck on pentatonics, really. There's some really weird stuff in there, right from the first LP.

[Mister Crow]

I felt like the kid in the story The Emperor's New Clothes. That solo is wack . {censored}-awful tone, no structure at all, that hideous warbly vibrato, and cack-handed phrasing that I found laughable even at the age of 13. And I, like Clapton, "have not changed my view". I find this about most of lead playing on the Cream albums. "Christ, here comes the solo, I was quite enjoying it up to then". Can someone point me to some actually genuinely good and not hideously ugly lead playing on a Cream LP? I'm not joking. I think it sounds rotten. I'll give him this though, it's not boring like his later stuff. It's too weird and ugly to be boring. It just makes me WTF every time he cranks up.

 

 

Interesting. I'm one of those who isn't interested in most of EC's output post 1970, but I've always loved Deserted Cities of the Heart. Especially the guitar solo! To me, it's one of his least blues-inspired solos, he really seems to be going for something 'outside' his comfort zone. I really like the thin, trebly, almost sitar-like tone. Kind of psychedelic EC.

 

There is an excellent version of DCOTH on the album Live Cream Volume Two, it really is high energy, tight, and very 'rock'.

[Dr_Kuh]

Interesting. I'm one of those who isn't interested in most of EC's output post 1970, but I've always loved Deserted Cities of the Heart. Especially the guitar solo! To me, it's one of his least blues-inspired solos, he really seems to be going for something 'outside' his comfort zone. I really like the thin, trebly, almost sitar-like tone. Kind of psychedelic EC. There is an excellent version of DCOTH on the album Live Cream Volume Two, it really is high energy, tight, and very 'rock'.

Yeah anyhow that solo would truly suck in another context but it fits this song so perfectly. This wobbling style and the tone which is more a noise. But even the best things aren't for everyone

[hardtdc]

God, I can't believe all the back and forth bull{censored} commentary about "listen to this riff vs that riff" on these two guys when what you really should listen to is 'Stormy Monday' or 'Whipping Post' off the Fillmore East album if you want to know what a real blues playing guitar god sounded like. Long live Duane Allman!

[JoeFender]

I think he's really the last person you could accuse of being stuck on pentatonics, really. There's some really weird stuff in there, right from the first LP.

 

 

No, he's certainly not the last person I'd think of. He used almost all major & minor pentatonics and blues scales, with occasional exceptions. Check any Jimmy Page lesson, or do a seach for "Jimmy Page pentatonics".

 

But that's all just by ear, if you believe this interview I dug up of him:

 

Do you practice the guitar?

 

JP: No, I couldn

[john_p_t]

That quote, it seems to me, does exactly the opposite of supporting what you're saying.

[JoeFender]

That quote, it seems to me, does exactly the opposite of supporting what you're saying.

But that doesn't change the fact that he played what was in his head. And most of the time that was major/minor pentatonics and blues scales. Or very close. That's really the sound of rock & roll, or the blues. Or most Western music, really. Pick up a book of Led Zeppelin songs, most of his solo's will be with notes from those scales.

Here's a perfect example:
http://www.guitarworld.com/article/soloing_strategies_jimmy_page

The quote, if you are to believe him, means he didn't do it conciously or knowingly. Many great guitar players claim to not know theory. Eddie Van Halen, Eric Clapton(yes, really), George Lynch, Jimi Hendrix, David Gilmour, Dimebag Darrell, Angus Young, to name a few. Well, maybe more than a few!

They may not know what scales are named, or may not be able to explain things in musical terms, but it's doubtful they didn't have a pretty good understanding of what notes go with what chords, etc.

When he played with tuning and found progressions he liked, he would find things to go with that. Which explains the rest.

[john_p_t]

There's an absolute ton of nothing-like-pentatonic stuff in the Zep catalogue. Think of stuff like Friends, or the riff from Out On The Tiles, or Kashmir. Loads of it is really chromatic and borderline atonal, like Ten Years Gone, but is still really melodic.

 

I can't see where you're coming from on this at all. Blues is one of the many things he could do well, but it's nowhere near the only thing. And even then, his blues stuff leans heavily on mixolydian and natural minor. That Since I've Been Loving You clip in the thread; there's all kinds of very sophisticated stuff going on in that.

[Willyguitar]

I felt like the kid in the story The Emperor's New Clothes. That solo is wack . {censored}-awful tone, no structure at all, that hideous warbly vibrato, and cack-handed phrasing that I found laughable even at the age of 13. And I, like Clapton, "have not changed my view". I find this about most of lead playing on the Cream albums. "Christ, here comes the solo, I was quite enjoying it up to then". Can someone point me to some actually genuinely good and not hideously ugly lead playing on a Cream LP? I'm not joking. I think it sounds rotten. I'll give him this though, it's not boring like his later stuff. It's too weird and ugly to be boring. It just makes me WTF every time he cranks up.

 

 

I voted for Page on this poll. However, I believe you have fundamentally misunderstood the whole premise of Psychadelic rock.

[Gumkick]

well lets see.. at this time this kinda stuff captured the time.. Jack Bruce on Bass Ginger Baker drums EC on Guitar.. a nice controlled jam... i really like this tune... and the lyrics are fantastic.. its a freaking masterpiece... by great musicans not GODS.. but really cool players..

 

 

It's a cool song, and I like this arrangement but I prefer the original lyrics.

 

[YOUTUBE]cGGSo530bdA[/YOUTUBE]

[john_p_t]

I voted for Page on this poll. However, I believe you have fundamentally misunderstood the whole premise of Psychadelic rock.

 

 

Like I say, Emperor's New Clothes: "if you were wise enough, you'd get it".

[Willyguitar]

Like I say, Emperor's New Clothes: "if you were wise enough, you'd get it".

 

 

No, it's not that. I think it's a deliberatly obtuse solo - clanky, over-tremoloed for a reason, to create urgency, but also it is a product of its time. Also, are you sure that you are not just reliving a bad taste in your mouth from your experience as a 13 year old?

 

I actually really love that solo, precisely because it doesn't contain what you might expect. It fits the song really well, to my ear.

[CoqBelliqueux]

No, it's not that. I think it's a deliberatly obtuse solo - clanky, over-tremoloed for a reason, to create urgency, but also it is a product of its time. Also, are you sure that you are not just reliving a bad taste in your mouth from your experience as a 13 year old? I actually really love that solo, precisely because it doesn't contain what you might expect. It fits the song really well, to my ear.

 

I agree with you for the most part, but it's still a failed attempt. The intentions were there, but the result is pathetic and grating. John Petrucci had a similar {censored}ed-up solo on 6 Degrees and it just didn't work.

[cbh5150]

Page = more creative; better composer. HORRIBLE live.

Clapton = better player; at his best live while being pushed.

Overall, it's a draw.

[JoeFender]

There's an absolute ton of nothing-like-pentatonic stuff in the Zep catalogue. Think of stuff like Friends, or the riff from Out On The Tiles, or Kashmir. Loads of it is really chromatic and borderline atonal, like Ten Years Gone, but is still really melodic. I can't see where you're coming from on this at all. Blues is one of the many things he could do well, but it's nowhere near the only thing. And even then, his blues stuff leans heavily on mixolydian and natural minor. That Since I've Been Loving You clip in the thread; there's all kinds of very sophisticated stuff going on in that.

 

 

So I guess your position is that Guitar World, all the tab books and guitar instructors are wrong?

 

You name three or four songs that are different. The preponderance of his work is pentatonic, mostly copied from blues players. Some of his post-lawsuit songs may have moved in another direction, out of a sense of self-preservation.

 

BTW, a lot of Clapton's stuff leans on the Mixolydian mode as well. They both probably copped the sound from "Hideaway", and tried to imitate/incorporate it in their own compositions.

[Willyguitar]

I agree with you for the most part, but it's still a failed attempt. The intentions were there, but the result is pathetic and grating. John Petrucci had a similar {censored}ed-up solo on 6 Degrees and it just didn't work.

 

 

Maybe he was just completely off his head when he recorded it? I like to think so.