The 20th century: an aberation in the music biz?

[sabriel9v]

like I have resonant strings inside of me and they ring different notes or chords of feelings as the music moves from one note, line, phrase, gesture, combination of notes, etc, to another. This is not something I expected to ever feel or was ever told I would feel listening to music, so for me, it seems like it is a very genuine and real experience that is as real as the computer I am looking at.

 

 

You just substantiated my point. What Beethoven makes you precisely feel is almost exclusive to you and only you. However, I would bet that other people share that same feeling and that's why they enjoy his music. Nevertheless, it's still possible to feel and reciprocate those same emotions when listening to other genres...even Tool and Slayer.

[slight-return]

...even Tool and Slayer.

not to be the spelling police, but you misspelled "except" - as "even"




tee hee hee

(runs into the woods to hide)

[soundwave106]

I used to find it boring as well, or I just couldn't see where it was going. Once I began listening closely though to the way the music moves and changes, though, I gained a huge appreciation for it.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it for what it is -- however, I find it too predictable for my taste. It's more an era thing. Classical music pieces that really move me tend to come from the late 19th / early 20th century (late Romantic or early modern), when the tonal palette composers were experimenting with, and the general orchestra instrumentation, was much larger than the classical era.

 

Modern classical composers beyond this era too often go off the theoretical deep end, but orchestral film scores are largely stuck in the early 20th century. So occasionally there will be a score that matches the quality of the best works of older romantic/modern composers, MHO (although obviously not the innovativeness).

[Cygnus64]

Modern classical composers beyond this era too often go off the theoretical deep end,

Every period has its good and bad composers. For every Mozart, there was a Stamitz and Hoffmeister.

There is a lot of good stuff out there now amongst the crap. The problem is hearing it, since it is very expensive to put on. Beethoven is cheap, since orchestras own the music and its a smaller orchestra. Modern music doesnt sell seats, mainly out of fear.

It is VERY rare to hear new music that lasts more than 10 minutes. Orchestras simply wont program it. They will do a short modern piece and balance it with a warhorse like Tchaikovsky. Even the modern classics like Stravinsky and Bartok are expensive since the sheet music is rental only, and it often requires additional players like Piano, Celeste and extra percussion. Orchestras dont have those players on salary, and its a lot of extra $$.

Rehearsal time is expensive too, its the most expensive part of putting on a show. Orchestras know Beethoven. For a modern piece, it simply takes more rehearsal time to get through it, make sure the music is legible and printed properly, on and on. Therefore, management is extremely reticent to put on anything modern. Even stuff like Copland Symphony #3 isnt programmed that much, the reason being that it is incredibly hard and has a huge orchestra.

Board members of an orchestra (AKA Mr. and Mrs. Moneybags) fear anything after 1890.

[sabriel9v]

 

It is VERY rare to hear new music that lasts more than 10 minutes. Orchestras simply wont program it. They will do a short modern piece and balance it with a warhorse like Tchaikovsky. Even the modern classics like Stravinsky and Bartok are expensive since the sheet music is rental only, and it often requires additional players like Piano, Celeste and extra percussion. Orchestras dont have those players on salary, and its a lot of extra $$.

 

 

You're right. Wanna talk about a tough business? Try being a classical or jazz composer. You HAVE to do it for the love.

[Cygnus64]

You're right. Wanna talk about a tough business? Try being a classical or jazz composer. You HAVE to do it for the love.

99.99999% of classical composers teach theory to make a living. Some of the best ones head to Hollywood. Even Copland and Prokofiev wrote film scores.

A lot of new music is chamber music: some piece for 3 flutes and vacuum cleaner. Since composers are always affiliated with a college, they can always get a small group of faculty or students to play their stuff. Getting a pro symphony is HARD. Its too bad, but as a symphony player I cant tell you how much new crap we have to wade through to get to a gem.

[Booya Tribe]

99.99999% of classical composers teach theory to make a living. Some of the best ones head to Hollywood. Even Copland and Prokofiev wrote film scores. A lot of new music is chamber music: some piece for 3 flutes and vacuum cleaner. Since composers are always affiliated with a college, they can always get a small group of faculty or students to play their stuff. Getting a pro symphony is HARD. Its too bad, but as a symphony player I cant tell you how much new crap we have to wade through to get to a gem.

 

The problem that I see with most modern classical music is that it is based on an idea or equation rather than on actual music and how it moves. Modern music tends to be much more intellectual than classical music was.

 

I am no stranger to the viewpoint, but I have moved away from that more recently. I used to be of the opinion that all sound was music (literally). That is enjoyable in its own way, because listening to sounds is nice, but I find that music that is properly created in a musical way can have an effect that just "sounds" can't. I came to that from listening closely to music, not out of any ideology.

 

I was around some modern classical music when I went to college, actually I was pretty into it myself, and what I absorbed from them, at least with the modern composers I was around, was music that is based on conceptual ideas and a fascination with technology. For example, the piece is "about" some historical event, and the music is created in such a way which is somehow automatically generated by something having to do with that event (ie: names, words, people involved). Or the music is based on a piece of software or system set up within the software. So the composer didn't actually focus on the music and the way it sounds as much as how to just get this concept into sound, no matter what it sounds like in the end.

 

These were composers who were highly regarded, on the head of national organizations related to music, etc. I respect them a lot because they actually were very talented musicians (even very well versed in traditional forms) and very smart people, don't get me wrong, but in that way, I don't actually think they are making music, but rather, just trying to illustrate intellectual concepts through sounds. I think these two are actually totally different, and when one listens to music made in these two different ways, you can feel the difference inside. I am fine with people making that kind of music, but I don't think it should be done to the absolute exclusion of the other.

 

I do think that type of music has a hard time catching on with the public though, because they don't feel what they are used to feeling when they listen to music. You usually have to know the story behind the music in order to "get it," so it doesn't have the accessibility that other types of music do. Also, most people can't distinguish what is "good" from what is "bad," or where the order is in the music, which just plain confuses people and makes them wonder if just anyone can become a modern classical composer.

[sabriel9v]

 

I do think that type of music has a hard time catching on with the public though, because they don't feel what they are used to feeling when they listen to music. You usually have to know the story behind the music in order to "get it," so it doesn't have the accessibility that other types of music do. Also, most people can't distinguish what is "good" from what is "bad," or where the order is in the music, which just plain confuses people and makes them wonder if just anyone can become a modern classical composer.

 

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean here...are you siding with modern classical music or against it? There are tons of great modern classical composers. Terence Blanchard, Carter Burwell, John Mclaughlin, John Williams...and the greats like Stravinsky, Debussy, Ravel and so on. I'm no classical expert, but there's still great modern classical music. If people feel it's easy to become a classical composer, then they are sadly mistaken. Not just from a theory and training perspective, but hiring orchestras and bands is expensive. You have to go through musicians unions and they have different fees. It's not an easy business...expect to perform in front of senior citizens.

[soundwave106]

There is a lot of good stuff out there now amongst the crap. The problem is hearing it, since it is very expensive to put on. Beethoven is cheap, since orchestras own the music and its a smaller orchestra. Modern music doesnt sell seats, mainly out of fear.

Well, the early-20th century stuff still sells seats if it is well known enough -- I recently went to a well-attended performance of Carmina Burana for instance. So the "modern classics" can *sell*, at least, if they are well known enough.

You're definitely right about the expense of the orchestration, though -- the stage was *packed* due to a need for a mixed choir, a children's choir, two pianos, celeste, and a huge, highly active percussion section. (Though the choir was volunteer, I'm sure the musicians were not) Plus you have the performance rights expenses not associated with older musicians -- I think Orff is still under copyright, for instance, in fact I bet a huge amount after say 1900 is still under copyright.

And yes, they snuck in a new orchestral piece to open the show, albeit it was 20 minutes, not 10.

The above is why the Florida Orchestra bookends their modern performances with Beethoven and Brahms sessions. The economics of orchestral music must have been *way* different back in those times to allow such things to premiere in the first place (could you imagine a Mahler Symphony #8 being conceived today?)...

[Booya Tribe]

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean here...are you siding with modern classical music or against it? There are tons of great modern classical composers. Terence Blanchard, Carter Burwell, John Mclaughlin, John Williams...and the greats like Stravinsky, Debussy, Ravel and so on. I'm no classical expert, but there's still great modern classical music. If people feel it's easy to become a classical composer, then they are sadly mistaken. Not just from a theory and training perspective, but hiring orchestras and bands is expensive. You have to go through musicians unions and they have different fees. It's not an easy business...expect to perform in front of senior citizens.

 

 

I'm not really trying to take a side. I am talking about how the general public/non-composers, those not "in the know" etc... perceive modern classical music... particularly the avant garde type... not so much the John Williams type, which is very accessible, and hence his success. I saw people reacting this way to the music all the time when it was performed, even music students often didn't "get it."

 

A lot of the stuff you mention (strvinsky, debussy, ravel) is earlier than what is considered "modern classical," and easier to digest, so what I was getting at doesn't really apply to that.

[soundwave106]

 

I'm not really trying to take a side. I am talking about how the general public/non-composers, those not "in the know" etc... perceive modern classical music... particularly the avant garde type... not so much the John Williams type, which is very accessible, and hence his success. I saw people reacting this way to the music all the time when it was performed, even music students often didn't "get it."

 

 

One of the more interesting exception to this rule is Gorecki's Symphony #3, which hit the top 10 in the UK *pop* charts, despite being a modern avant-garde influenced style ("mystic minimalism"). Now, it took 16 years after conception to hit the charts. Makes you wonder if other modern classical gems exist that really would connect with people outside the avant garde circle's love of inaccessible music. Or whether this was just a weird exception.

[Cygnus64]

The above is why the Florida Orchestra

My old girlfriend is in that band. The symphonic world is 2 degrees of seperation.

[chetwesley]

 

One of the more interesting exception to this rule is Gorecki's Symphony #3, which hit the top 10 in the UK *pop* charts, despite being a modern avant-garde influenced style ("mystic minimalism"). Now, it took 16 years after conception to hit the charts. Makes you wonder if other modern classical gems exist that really would connect with people outside the avant garde circle's love of inaccessible music. Or whether this was just a weird exception.

 

 

Before you know it Stockhausen and Xenakis will be jamming with Biggie Smalls... oh, wait, maybe they already are...

[Booya Tribe]

Sheesh Chet, that was a real thread killer!

[sabriel9v]

Sheesh Chet, that was a real thread killer!

 

 

LOL. Is Biggie Smalls not good enough to jam with classical composers?

[daddymack]

LOL. Is Biggie Smalls not good enough to jam with classical composers?

only if P Diddy (or whatever he is calling himself these days) produces...

[sabriel9v]

only if P Diddy (or whatever he is calling himself these days) produces...

Haha. He never really produced any of Biggie's material. He served as the official hype man/manager.

[Booya Tribe]

I thought the joke was that they were all dead My response was kind of supposed to be a pun, but... well, now that I am explaining it...

[sabriel9v]

While this thread moved off topic a while ago, I'd like to say that I'm proud that Radiohead and the Flaming Lips are two bands from the current generation that 1) do not contribute to an aberration within the music biz and 2) offer something fresh and unique. As well as a relevant social commentary to our daily lives. In my book those are two bands that will stand the test of time.