The 20th century: an aberation in the music biz?

[Cygnus64]

I I agree with most of what you said here, but this is kind of a cop out.

Historically, some of the greatest music has been written in some of the most trying times.

[kha02a]

I agree with most of what you said here, but this idea is kind of a cop out. I was around during the Nixon years, and believe me, he made Bush look like Abraham Lincoln. The governemt then was far more restrictive in terms of morality and personal behavior, and in terms of public policy (national speed limit of 55, wage and price controls, the draft, etc) yet somehow the arts, especially music, managed to thrive and have frequent incredible spurts of intense creativity. I think what you are chalking up to political suppression is really a symptom of a bloated and spoiled culture. Unemployment is at a record low, money is readily available (moreso than the 60s-early 70s, and certainly more than at any time I can remember ), we've had nearly 15 years of fair to great economic expansion, and there are a jillion techological advancements in that time in the personal entertainment business. Put simply, there are so many video games, computers, home theaters and gadgets to occupy one's time and keep one entertained that the desire and motivation to create gets anesthetized. Case in point: Here I sit, whiling away time on a computer. When I was a kid, we had 3 channels on TV through rabbit ears. We had radio, and a stereo that played vinyl records. We had one theater in town that played the same movie for three weeks. No computer, no video games, no home theaters, nothing. I learned to play guitar at that time, and practiced continually, often 6 to 8 hours a day, because there wasn't much else to do. When I wasn't practicing, I was oil painting, pen and ink drawing, writing, or reading one of the 20 or so books I read every year. Now, I seldom practice, and haven't painted or drawn for years, because when I come home, it's too tempting to get online and check in on the goings-on here or flop down in my huge leather recliner and watch my big screen HDTV with 160 (or however many) channels. I actually thank God I learned to play when I did, because I don't know that I would have with all the technological distractions that exist today. Young musicians and artists these days have to be incredibly disciplined and dedicated to their craft to get any good, much more so (IMO) than when I was learning.

 

 

Think of it as less of a cop out and more of just a hunch I have. And you kind of filled in the blanks on what I was trying to say. I'm not talking about the government being oppressive but rather being a catalyst to to our culture's sick obsession with consumerism. And you hit the nail right on the head when you compared your generation with the current one. You identified the problem exactly. I just sometimes think that if the people vote in a candidate promising change, maybe that will be evidence of a changing culture. And maybe that means that what the consumer believes to be valuable will change. Thus putting unique expression in demand.

 

But who really knows how it will turn out.

[sabriel9v]

I think what you are chalking up to political suppression is really a symptom of a bloated and spoiled culture.

 

I feel the same way and it's sad...I shouldn't feel this way because I'm only 21. Damn, maybe I'm jaded

 

To kha02, I'm a little disappointed that you alluded to Nirvana as one of the last bands that provoked a cultural revolution, this may be true, but that was 15 years ago. Why not step up to the plate and say that you could potentially write some songs that pull on our culture's heartstrings?

 

To counter the argument that "bad" music is fueled by the public itself seems slightly erroneous. Who defines bad music? Moreover, once we have a definition of bad music, how much of that bs being played on the radio is actually being purchased and consumed? Why do you think so many people just download the songs being played on the radio and move on.

[Booya Tribe]

"baroque" is pretty literally 'extravigantly ornamented' -- baroqu music has a crapload of harmonic density (it was largely the exploratory period from organum to fully contrapunctual music) and has craploads of ornament (those little wiggly things in the score...they are shorthand for a flurry of extra-melodic notes) there was even a famous criticizm of Old Man Bach's work that called it "turgid and confused" and "unnatural, overly artful' Even CPE had been known to be critical of that and, himself, was a bridge to the classical style

 

 

I am talking about what you feel when you listen to it closely, not the technicalities of the way it is made, the definitions of words, or the opinions of critics.

[slight-return]

I am talking about what you feel when you listen to it closely, not the technicalities of the way it is made, the definitions of words, or the opinions of critics.

 

 

ME too!!

(just with some supporting detail)

 

The application of the word was, after all, descriptive

the opinions of the critics were a reflection of what THEY felt

Analysis of the structure (esp in baroque ) can help us understand why this is the case (it was, after all, a major exploration of harmony)

 

especially when the listening is close, I often have a very different experience to baroque than the one you described

[sabriel9v]

The problem I have is that I look for music, I look around for something new that will meet what I am looking for, and I don't see anyone doing it.

What are you looking for in particular? I bet I could recommend some good artists

[kha02a]

To counter the argument that "bad" music is fueled by the public itself seems slightly erroneous. Who defines bad music? Moreover, once we have a definition of bad music, how much of that bs being played on the radio is actually being purchased and consumed? Why do you think so many people just download the songs being played on the radio and move on.

 

 

I think the way labels operate today and their cost cutting tactics really water down the music that is being produced and distributed. Why do they do this? Because they've developed a system that maximizes the amount of records they can sell to make the most money. Who determines how many records they can sell? The consumer. If the consumer decides "Hey most of this new music is {censored}! I'll just buy older music or only the new stuff that is quality.", then guess that the labels are going to start producing?

 

You also asked "who defines bad music" well I'm speaking under the assumption that we all agree that the bulk of current artists just aren't cutting it. But really the people who buy music have the ultimate say. Because what they purchase has such a drastic effect on what is produced and sold in the future.

[sabriel9v]

 

But as great as this experience was and as much as I love many other "groundbreaking" artists of recent years I wouldn't say that they've had a massive effect like some of the other artists we've talked about.

 

 

You could be right. But like you said there are still events like Bonnaroo and Languerado that capture the spirit of the sixties and seventies. People can go there and let go of all of their frustrations and aggression...maybe we should all drop acid more and then every small moment in life would be epic. Even pumping 3 dollars a gallon gas into our vehicles at the gas station while sipping on equally if not more expensive caffeinated beverages from Starbucks would be a mind-altering and new experience.

[Booya Tribe]

What are you looking for in particular? I bet I could recommend some good artists

Hmmm... that is the problem. I have described what I am looking for in my other posts, but it is mostly something that is felt when you hear the music.

I like music that is melodic, but not depressing or "hypnotic."

Most of the music I listen to now is classical, medieval, baroque, or traditional folk music like Eastern European, Middle Eastern, Japanese, Burmese, Indian, some Irish, Peruvian/Bolivian, etc...

As you can see, none of that is music that was developed within the last 100 years, but I am not purposely trying to exclude new music, it is just that this is what "resonates" with me.

Also, I don't really like very repetitive music (with very few exceptions), and I don't like music driven by aggression or heavy or repetitive beats. There is a lot of music I used to listen to, but no longer enjoy because I don't like the emotional quality of the music.

I don't really like Jazz. It doesn't exactly bother me for any reason I can put my finger on, but I just don't get into it. I used to listen to some stuff like Ornete Coleman, but now when I put it on, it is just doesn't strike me. More popular Jazz is even less interesting to me.

There are some modern artists that I have given a chance, and that I like certain qualities of - such as Devandra Banhart, Efterklang, Beirut, Feist, but all of these artists have a sort of underlying sadness in a lot of their music that I don't really like, and I don't really like any of their songs that are more rock based or too repetative (which are alot of them). I can get along with most of Devandra Banhart's "Rejoicing in the Hands" album which he kindly sent me a cdr of in the mail before it came out, but I don't like all of his music.

That is just a frame of reference, because, as you know, trying to talk about music and the way it actually sounds, and the qualities it has are very difficult. That is why it is music and not words.

Good luck

[sabriel9v]

I like music that is melodic, but not depressing or "hypnotic."

 

Hmm, tough one to crack. I will act as the musical pharmacist...now how bout these prescriptions:

 

Garage rock genre: The White Stripes (of course), Division of Laura Lee, and Black Rebel Motorcycle Club

 

Pop/ambient: Charlotte Gainsbourg, Tita Lima, the Flaming Lips, the Shins

Arctic Monkeys, Badly Drawn Boy and Amy Winehouse

 

Stoner rock: Tool, Mammatus, Dead Meadow

 

Mathrock/mathcore: Dillinger Escape Plan and Cinemechanica

 

Punk Rock: the Stitches

 

Rap/hip hop: Young Chris, Little Brother, and Lupe Fiasco

 

Try all of these artists in small doses (you can youtube most if not all of them). If you still experience symptoms after a couple days, come back to my office

[Booya Tribe]

I am sorry Sab, thanks for the attempt, but I have heard almost all of those groups and don't like almost any of it for most reasons already mentioned. I like the Flaming Lips alright if they are on and I have owned a few of their albums, but probably wouldn't buy any more at this point.

Most of the music you cited is too dark or aggressive for me. I like music that is more purely based on the melodic element, which is why I tend to like the music I mentioned. I am guessing you haven't heard much of what I mentioned based on what you suggested... but that's alright as I think I have a few years on you

Maybe it would also help to make the sweeping generalization that I don't really like rock music in almost any of its forms. Maybe I should also quietly leave this forum right now...

[sabriel9v]

 

I like music that is more purely based on the melodic element

 

 

I suppose this is what confused me. There's a difference between something being melodic and being light, airy or wispy. There are dark and dissonant melodies just as there are lighter, more "major-sounding" melodies.

[Booya Tribe]

This is why it is difficult to describe music, because I do like Beethoven's music, which can be very severe and would not be called "light" or "airy" in many cases (check out the beginning of his 9th Symphony, or the classic theme from the 5th "dun dun dun duh"), yet it isn't really heavy, dark, moody, or aggressive in the same way that Tool is, for example.

[sabriel9v]

This is why it is difficult to describe music, because I do like Beethoven's music, which can be very severe and would not be called "light" or "airy" in many cases (check out the beginning of his 9th Symphony, or the classic theme from the 5th "dun dun dun duh"), yet it isn't really heavy, dark, moody, or aggressive in the same way that Tool is, for example.

 

 

This is true. But when the 5th symphony first came out, I'm sure the audience had a reaction similar to hearing Tool. I'm sure it was like hearing Slayer or Pantera for the first time.

[Booya Tribe]

This is true. But when the 5th symphony first came out, I'm sure the audience had a reaction similar to hearing Tool. I'm sure it was like hearing Slayer or Pantera for the first time.

 

 

While I understand the sentiment, I don't really think it was seen like that, and I don't think such a statement holds up to anything we know about the way Beethoven's music was really received at the time.

 

I think there was a wider reception of Beethoven's work as art at the time, and he appealed to a totally different "crowd," so making those kind of comparisons, while I understand the temptation, is probably just not possible.

 

I also personally feel that Beethoven's music, even when severe or loud, still appeals to a part of us that metal just can't reach to... Beethoven's music is much much more dynamic and multifaceted... making a comparison almost seems silly and superficial when I begin to think of things about the two that could be compared.

[sabriel9v]

While I understand the sentiment, I don't really think it was seen like that, and I don't think such a statement holds up to anything we know about the way Beethoven's music was really received at the time. I think there was a wider reception of Beethoven's work as art at the time, and he appealed to a totally different "crowd," so making those kind of comparisons, while I understand the temptation, is probably just not possible. I also personally feel that Beethoven's music, even when severe or loud, still appeals to a part of us that metal just can't reach to... Beethoven's music is much much more dynamic and multifaceted... making a comparison almost seems silly and superficial when I begin to think of things about the two that could be compared.

Is this your professional opinion Mr. Christgau?

[soundwave106]

I also personally feel that Beethoven's music, even when severe or loud, still appeals to a part of us that metal just can't reach to... Beethoven's music is much much more dynamic and multifaceted... making a comparison almost seems silly and superficial when I begin to think of things about the two that could be compared.

The various genres of "progressive metal" (and progressive rock before that) in some way tried to correct that, adding some more thematic elements, some of which can be found in classical music. If metal is too hard-edged, try the 1970s days (and remember not all of it is overly wanky ).

I actually find a lot of Beethoven boring.

[Booya Tribe]

The various genres of "progressive metal" (and progressive rock before that) in some way tried to correct that, adding some more thematic elements, some of which can be found in classical music. If metal is too hard-edged, try the 1970s days (and remember not all of it is overly wanky ). I actually find a lot of Beethoven boring.

 

I used to find it boring as well, or I just couldn't see where it was going. Once I began listening closely though to the way the music moves and changes, though, I gained a huge appreciation for it. I am definitely not the type of person you would expect to listen to classical music if you just met me. I have gone to concerts of Beethoven's music, and felt very out of place, as it seemed more like a club or a social event, rather than a place to listen closely to the music.

 

I don't think you can really put his music on as background music. It is the type of thing you have to sit and listen to at the exclusion of any other activity, or there is no point to putting it on.

 

On the other hand, what is normally on in the background at my house is some traditional folk music of some kind, which is usually even simpler than almost any other type of music. I am not some kind of classical music snob and I'm not even particularly well educated on its forms or theory or any of that, I just regard the music very highly and it does a lot for me when I am able to put it on and listen closely.

 

If you give Beethoven's music a very serious listen, and then compare it to something like Tool or Slayer, I am sorry, but there is no realistic comparison. I am not even trying to say Beethoven is better, just that there is very little grounds to compare the two on, and that they lead in very different directions and serve very different purposes, that is all I was getting at with my earlier comments. No offense to anyone's musical taste intended, just saying comparisons don't hold up in any kind of serious way.

 

I do like some 70's progressive rock that doesn't go too far off into wanky land, especially the type that includes some folk aspects as well, and isn't entirely lead along by the drums.

[Cygnus64]

If you give Beethoven's music a very serious listen, and then compare it to something like Tool or Slayer, I am sorry, but there is no realistic comparison. I am not even trying to say Beethoven is better, just that there is very little grounds to compare the two on, and that they lead in very different directions and serve very different purposes, that is all I was getting at with my earlier comments. No offense to anyone's musical taste intended, just saying comparisons don't hold up in any kind of serious way.

I try not to compare classical and popular music, its apples and oranges.

For the record, I have performed every single note of Beethovens orchestral music. Even the obscure stuff like Wellington's Victory, Consecration of the house, etc. I dont find it boring.

[sabriel9v]

 

If you give Beethoven's music a very serious listen, and then compare it to something like Tool or Slayer, I am sorry, but there is no realistic comparison.

 

 

I'm not trying to compare classical and metal...of course there are similarities between both genres because metal is very classical oriented, specifically stuff like Judas Priest or Yngwie. But I feel that the cultural impact that some of Beethoven's symphonies had must have been somewhat similar to first hearing Pantera or Tool. Beethoven is complex, but his music provokes primitive and angry feelings. Or feelings of depression and remorse. Emotions of happiness and joy. I don't feel it's fair to say that newer music is not capable of digging at those same emotions. To each his own, but I'm sorry...that's just a snobby remark.

[Booya Tribe]

 

I'm not trying to compare classical and metal...of course there are similarities between both genres because metal is very classical oriented, specifically stuff like Judas Priest or Yngwie. But I feel that the cultural impact that some of Beethoven's symphonies had must have been somewhat similar to first hearing Pantera or Tool. Beethoven is complex, but his music provokes primitive and angry feelings. Or feelings of depression and remorse. Emotions of happiness and joy. I don't feel it's fair to say that newer music is not capable of digging at those same emotions. To each his own, but I'm sorry...that's just a snobby remark.

 

 

I don't feel those same things you mention when I listen to Beethoven. I feel like (ok this is going to sound funny) in some way I am a musical instrument and the music is "playing" feelings inside of me that I can not describe in any of the terms you mention, definitely not in any ordinary emotional terms as far as I can describe... like I have resonant strings inside of me and they ring different notes or chords of feelings as the music moves from one note, line, phrase, gesture, combination of notes, etc, to another. This is not something I expected to ever feel or was ever told I would feel listening to music, so for me, it seems like it is a very genuine and real experience that is as real as the computer I am looking at. I also don't do drugs, by the way, so I am not describing a psychedelic experience!

 

I have never felt this listening to any other type of music closely. Can you understand, after describing these feelings, why I think these two types of music reach different places?

 

Perhaps that is why we see this matter in different ways, because you and I experienced something different in this music, or perhaps I have had the chance or the motivation to listen to it more closely (I don't know how familiar you are with that type of music, so I can only guess). I don't feel like I am any better than anyone else for that fact. It is just something I appreciate, that is all!

[slight-return]

Hey Booya -

I'm thinking you might like Durufle' -- it's 20th cen, but he was heavilly interested in Gregorian chant, so it's a nice exploration of an older music, with some more modern texture and coloration

on the ICM front, I think you might like Irshad Khan - he's definitely down with traditional sensibilities, but has a voice of his own [i actually pref his work to his papas]
I find he can really work the lower register and can use incidental sounds and some extended technique to great effect.
He does folk and even some x-over/fusion/worldmusicy stuff too (which isn't of particular interest to me, but others might be into it)

Paul Galbraith's stuff (both the original stuff and his coverage of both high and folk music) might appeal to ya - it has the clarity of solo and small ensemble music, but he uses extended range instrument so the arrangement isn't overly at the mercy of physical limitation

[Booya Tribe]

I find he can really work the lower register and can use incidental sounds and some extended technique to great effect. He does folk and even some x-over/fusion/worldmusicy stuff too (which isn't of particular interest to me, but others might be into it) Paul Galbraith's stuff (both the original stuff and his coverage of both high and folk music) might appeal to ya - it has the clarity of solo and small ensemble music, but he uses extended range instrument so the arrangement isn't overly at the mercy of physical limitation

 

 

Thanks for the suggestions Slight-Return. I don't think I have heard any of that before, I will check it out. I also don't like the world fusion thing, but to each his own.

 

What does ICM mean?

[slight-return]

I also don't do drugs, by the way, so I am not describing a psychedelic experience!

 

 

Just in fairness - psychadelic experiences certainly don't have to have their roots in recreational psychopharm. "Alternative" states of perception/conciousness are part of the regular human experience. There is even some evidence that things such as synethesia isn't so much a boolean (yes/no) type deal and may even effect language

 

Perhaps that is why we see this matter in different ways, because you and I experienced something different in this music

 

you bring up a good point hat could be a major crux - the musical experience is a communication - or maybe comunion (co - being the operative part) with composer, performer, listener all playing active role in the experience.

like where you mentioned finding serenity and simplicity in old man Bach's music, I find a different experience (that may have to do with background as well...class guit is my native inst), not a less profound one, but one of a different nature - might have to do with how we're processing information in a number of ways

(wife used to be a neuropsych researcher, so I am kind of a fanboy of that stuff)

 

It's a weird puzzle, I mean there's some commonality, there's some variation and it's really easy for us to assume that some of the variant stuff is common as it is a part of our subjective universe

[slight-return]

it out. I also don't like the world fusion thing, but to each his own.

I like the concept and I respect the attempts, but I just...well it always seems like it's trying to serve too many masters and winds up either dilluted and neither fish nor foul...sort of like the Luftwaffe at the close of WWII


What does ICM mean?


oops, sorry bt that

Indian Classical Music

[i might be off target on that one, I am under the impression that sort of music interests you -- but maybe not]