The digital archiving nightmare

[UstadKhanAli]

 

I should have read this whole thread before responding. I was the product manager for all Akai products back when the MG1212 and MG1214 were out. I never ever heard anybody talking about them as archival recorders. They were simply a nice sounding recorder at the time, targeted at someone who would want a high-end portastudio. This is the first conversation where I have ever heard anyone refer to them as an archival medium.

 

 

Which I stated (and you even quoted). And btw, Blue2blue was using it as an example, and not to say that it was an archival medium, so actually even he didn't actually state it was an archival format.

 

 

Sony had nothing to do with the Akai 12-track recorder. The tapes were manufactured by TDK. I'm not sure why anyone would think Sony had anything to do with it. They were rivals of Akai.

 

 

Akai was attempting to use the Sony beta videocassette format at first. Sony ultimately disallowed this before the MG1212 was manufactured, and Akai switched the tape to a proprietary format, changing the specifications ever so slightly (they look almost the same). Some people still believe that the Akai MG1214/MG1214/14D use beta videocassettes, but it's not true because Sony never went along with it, so since Akai had already developed the unit, the came up with a proprietary tape, changing the specifications slightly. TDK, as you mention, were the first manufacturer of the tape, although this was later switched to Maxell. All of this information that I am mentioning was given to me by Harvey Gerst, who worked for Akai during this period, and by their West Coast representatives in North America (Pasadena), who can corroborate everything that I am saying. This is not necessarily common knowledge, but that doesn't mean it's not true.

 

The Akai MG1212, MG1214, and 14D sold well, but would likely have sold far better if they had adopted a non-proprietary format (duh), which would have driven down manufacturing costs and created greater availability. I realize this is obvious to the point of being pedantic, but it bears mentioning since these units would have likely sold far more than they had.

[MikeRivers]

 

I'm assuming you folks read the article and are aware that this topic isn't about digital vs. analog, right?

 

No, I didn't read the article, but I assumed that it wasn't about digital vs. analog, it was about how long "forever" really is. Close?

[blue2blue]

This.

This is what is known as a distractive nuisance... but it actually serves a very positive end: it gives folks who are willing to argue to the grave about topics that are of precious little global importance a place to expend their seemingly inexhaustible energy -- safely out of the hair of people who actually have serious issues on their mind.

 

You know, the guys in the political forum...

[UstadKhanAli]

Oh, I guess you don't even need to email Harvey Gerst, McMike:

 

 

http://homerecording.com/bbs/general-discussions/analog-only/tape-akai-mg14d-mg1212-mg1214-253924/#post2815851 Harvey Gerst posted: Well, originally, Akai had secured the rights from Sony to use the Betamax cassette shell, loaded with EE tape, but just at the last minute, Sony reversed their decision, stating that the Beta shell with audio tape would confuse their customers. Akai had to make a last minute scramble to come up with a "Beta-like" shell that would fit their machines that were already tooled up to use "Beta" shells. Yes, you can try the Super VHS, but I don't think you'll like it. I had this same conversation many times before, when I was Director of Electronics at IMC. IMC was the North American distributor for Akai Pro products.

 

[UstadKhanAli]

 

At least Akai came out with a statement, well after the end of life for those recorders, that they would support the tape format for ten years. And they continued the tape supply for that period.

 

 

Akai manufactured the MG series and the 14D I believe about five years (1985 to 1990, I believe), after which they supplied tape for ten years, which was actually quite generous of them. The tapes are now rather difficult to come by, although I am sitting on a stash of over 40 (all used, of course!)!

[MikeRivers]

 

I was the product manager for all Akai products back when the MG1212 and MG1214 were out. I never ever heard anybody talking about them as archival recorders.

 

Nobody ever thought of them as archival recorders, but at the time, assumed that as long as they had the tape and the recorder they'd be able to play it, re-mix it, add or replace tracks, just like when they initially recorded the project. And that's still the way it is.

 

Record labels can, and should, spend the rather trivial amount of money to make true archival copies of their catalog and store them properly. They're the ones who may some day be interested in re-issuing the material from the original recordings. A hobbyist with an MG1212 probably only thinks of that many years too late. And today's hobbyists with their projects on hard drives are just like the MG users. As long as the hard drive doesn't get washed away in a flood or eaten by a bear it'll still play, right?

[Jeff da Weasel]

Why would you want to take anti-psychotic meds? Back in the day, we used to pay good money to get this way...

 

 

This thread has more than I would have anticipated.

[UstadKhanAli]

I don't really care about whether something is analog or digital as far as archiving; I'm far more concerned about whether it will last or be usable in any way. If someone invents holographic 3D crystallization techniques to archive something and it's robust and will be read for the next 50-100 years, then I'm all over it. Until then, back up, back up, back up, and keep updating your storage medium and keep several copies.

[UstadKhanAli]

Yup. Record labels can, and should, spend the rather trivial amount of money to make true archival copies of their catalog and store them properly. They're the ones who may some day be interested in re-issuing the material from the original recordings. A hobbyist with an MG1212 probably only thinks of that many years too late.

 

However, they can still send their Akai MG1214 or MG1212 tapes to me here at Blueberry Buddha and I will transfer the tapes for you!!! I have Apogee converters and a MG1214 that I keep in good working condition.

 

And today's hobbyists with their projects on hard drives are just like the MG users. As long as the hard drive doesn't get washed away in a flood or eaten by a bear it'll still play, right?

 

Hard drives get old, they break, they switch formats slightly, you know how it goes. But you can easily transfer information from one hard drive to another, which is one nice advantage of a lot of digital information. As I keep writing, if you are archiving data, keep updating your storage mediums, and keep several copies to increase your chances of your valuable data being readable!!!

[MikeRivers]

Mike -- surely you are not suggesting that a technology that has dominated popular music distribution for more than a quarter century and for which many hundreds of millions of playback units have been manufactured, and billions of quite straightforward media disks* have been produced and spread around the globe, will be not just forgotten but beyond the capability of future technologists to figure out and decode...

Yup, that I am. And I suspect that 100 years from now there will be people who collect and maintain CD players just like there are people today who collect and maintain spring-wound phonographs. I have one. It still works. I store my collection of 78s in the cabinet.

 

But I'll bet, if we're both still around 100 years from now, that there will be fewer working CD players then than there are working phonographs today. I can't prove it, but I can predict it.

binary info, serially laid out in pits and lands -- even if one only read the pits, he'd have an 8 bit representation of the data stream -- which one of the reasons NASA scientists felt sending a single music CD to a nearby star system might actually make some vague slice of sense, likely recognizing it as a coherent signal of some sort...

And that's about all you'd get without knowing the word structure of that data stream. It's representative of the level of intelligence of those who sent it out there. Even if they sent a copy of The Red Book along with it (on CD so the paper wouldn't deteriorate???) do you think whoever finds it will be able to read English? Or be able to figure out technical English even if they take the trouble to figure out the basic language?

 

On the other hand, you can examine a phonograph record and get a clue as to how it works, and get some sound off of it without a lot of computer trial-and-error.

Of course, without knowing the proper playback speed, Robert Johnson might end up sounding like Barry White...

I'd be more concerned if my bank statement came out sounding like Robert Johnson.

[philbo]

In the 20's and 30's, radio shows were often archived by cutting aluminum disk masters. These get found periodically, and seem to not degrade in any perceptible fashion over time, if they're not physically damaged.

[the stranger]

Why would you want to take anti-psychotic meds? Back in the day, we used to pay good money to get this way...

 

aka: speculative metaphysics

[techristian]

Anyone here try SD cards for backup ??? They are getting cheap enough.

 

Dan

[MikeRivers]

 

Hard drives get old, they break, they switch formats slightly, you know how it goes. But you can easily transfer information from one hard drive to another, which is one nice advantage of a lot of digital information.

 

Yes, we all know that. It's one of the first points that the "digital archivist" makes in defending modern media. But YOU have to care to get it done, and you have to keep up with the media de jour when it changes. You can't let it go for 50 years like you can with tape. And if that isn't the conclusion that a reader should draw from the Rolling Stone article, I guess I'll have to go read it.

[MikeRivers]

 

In the 20's and 30's, radio shows were often archived by cutting aluminum disk masters. These get found periodically, and seem to not degrade in any perceptible fashion over time, if they're not physically damaged.

 

Snack, popple, crap - they're always "physically damaged" but still playable, and with some digital massaging, can be cleaned up quite a bit. But the point is that the material is still there and the equipment to play it isn't yet so esoteric that it's hard to find.

[MikeRivers]

 

Anyone here try SD cards for backup ??? They are getting cheap enough.

 

I back up my SD cards to CD. What "cheap enough" means now is that you can afford to store the original recordings on the original cards, at least until you can no longer find a slot to stick them in. Then your "archive" might as well be poker chips or tiddly winks.

[the stranger]

In the 20's and 30's, radio shows were often archived by cutting aluminum disk masters. These get found periodically, and seem to not degrade in any perceptible fashion over time, if they're not physically damaged.

 

[blue2blue]

aka: speculative metaphysics

I was into competitive metaphysics.

[the stranger]

I was into competitive metaphysics.

 

Weren't we all.

[cooterbrown]

 

A few years ago, a local archivist, Steve Simolian, wrote a gag April Fool article for the Library of Congress in which he described a new and highly reliable archive medium. About half way through, it became clear that he was talking about the 78 RPM phonograph record. There used to be consumer disk recorders back when the "record player" was a piece of living room furniture. It had a second tone arm with a cutting stylus, and recorded either on aluminum or lacquer coated blanks. Few (either the machines or recordings) survived, but I know someone who has set up to play them and make a fresh copy on another medium.

 

 

Yeah...I have seen one that belonged to my Uncle Augie. He had a fantasticly deep, smooth voice, and did more than a few pre-recorded commercials and PSA's for various radio stations around Chicago, from the mid-30 until after WW2.

I have heard some of those acetates, but I have no idea whatever became of that lathing machine.

His partially-insane wife probably gave it away, after he died, in the mid-70s.

[UstadKhanAli]

Yes, we all know that. It's one of the first points that the "digital archivist" makes in defending modern media. But YOU have to care to get it done, and you have to keep up with the media de jour when it changes. You can't let it go for 50 years like you can with tape. And if that isn't the conclusion that a reader should draw from the Rolling Stone article, I guess I'll have to go read it.

 

Mike, seriously, why do you cherry-pick my post? Didn't I say more or less the same thing in the part that you cut out from my post? Haven't I been saying that several times in this thread? Hasn't this been the point I've been making in quite a few of my posts in this wacko thread now?

 

I wrote "As I keep writing, if you are archiving data, keep updating your storage mediums, and keep several copies to increase your chances of your valuable data being readable!!!" but you conveniently chopped this out so you could then turn around and tell me this.

 

[MikeRivers]

That's good advice. I'm saying that it's a requirement if you're going to have an archive, but not necessarily if you just want some backups. It's really the only important point about this whole discussion, and if we say it often enough, maybe the light bulb will go on in a few more heads.