MIDI recording help needed

[Huh?]

Hi all. I need your help with something please.

 

I want to compose an orchestral part, say a string section and some brass. So after the player has been set and loaded with all the instruments and it is on an instrument track in Pro Tools. (Reaper too maybe) I go ahead and input the parts, recording them to the MIDI track. This far I sort of know how to get to. Still learning.

 

The thing is, I am no keyboard player, so it's going to be a hunt and peck type deal and probably many mistakes to correct even on a simple legato part at a slow tempo. OR I will use my MIDI guitar setup to input the notes.

 

My question has to do with CC information. One of the sample library players I have, uses the Mod Wheel a lot to get realistic performances, little volume and pitch changes or what have you. In addition, the sustain pedal might add a legato transition or just sustain and the keyswitches will add vibrato or staccato etc etc. All different ways of manipulating CC.

 

No way can i be thinking of this while fumbling over myself to play in the notes on the keyboard controller. With the guitar controller, even harder if not impossible.

 

Can this information be added after the fact?

 

Can you have a MIDI part all recorded, and then with MIDI Merge engaged, set that track to record and then operate the Mod Wheel or faders on a MIDI controller that have been assigned to various CC? And will this information then be added to that MIDI track depending on where you moved the wheel or faders etc?

 

Now when you play back, no notes have been altered in pitch or placement, but the various CC messages have been added; so as to make the performance of those notes hopefully sound more realistic?

 

Anyone know about this stuff?

 

Thanks.

[ggm1960]

 

Can this information be added after the fact? Can you have a MIDI part all recorded, and then with MIDI Merge engaged, set that track to record and then operate the Mod Wheel or faders on a MIDI controller that have been assigned to various CC? And will this information then be added to that MIDI track depending on where you moved the wheel or faders etc? Now when you play back, no notes have been altered in pitch or placement, but the various CC messages have been added; so as to make the performance of those notes hopefully sound more realistic? Anyone know about this stuff? Thanks.

 

 

Absolutely! You need to know the piano roll view. Usually beneath that (often you use the mouse to pull up from the bottom of the piano roll window) there is a gold mine of CC input possibilities. All your recorded midi control data will be there and you can edit the heck out of it or add more.

One hint; rather than using the volume control msg, opt for the espression msg as it will vary the volume in proportion to the main master volume control.

[Anderton]

^^ This

 

A couple other points. Your DAW may have different recording options, like overdub or replace. You want the overdub option, that way you can just hit record and add the CC data - no need to worry about MIDI merging. If you use replace, when you hit record the notes will go away as you record over them.

 

Also don't forget that you will probably have footpedal options you can use if you want to do something in real time, but your hands are busy. In most cases, you can route the footpedal to a different controller while you're playing.

 

And let me compliment you on how you phrased the question! It was obvious what you wanted to do, which always makes it easier to give an answer . I hate it when people ask vague questions like "I'm using an interface, does it work with sound cards?"

[Anderton]

Oh, and one other thing: Consider step time recording, where you can enter notes and spaces one at a time. Not very human-sounding, but you can fix that after the fact.

[Huh?]

Great, thanks very much Craig.

 

You know, some time ago, I looked for Replace or Overdub in Pro Tools prefs and under the MIDI menu and could not find that. In subsequent research found it written in the manual to turn on MIDI Merge, so as to essentially overdub.

 

Yes, I have all that, expression and sustain pedals etc and want to get a small MIDI controller, maybe a Korg NanoKontrol so as to have the ability to MIDI learn some of these parameters.

 

I am glad to hear I can overdub the CC messages as this is allow me so much more flexibility.

 

I am just using GPO4 at the moment. I have had it, and Jazz & Big Band, for so long and never learned to use it. I recently bought EWQLSO Platinum, killer Black Friday sale....$600 off.... but I want to force myself to learn how to wrangle something out of GPO4 first if I can stand to wait on opening that EWQLSO box.

 

Symphobia 1 is next.....

 

Thanks for the replies and compliment. I do agree on giving enough info for people to go off. I tend to be long winded anyway though.

 

I was a professional motorcycle mechanic for roughly 23 years and held Foreman and Service manager positions more than a few times at various places. I cannot tell you how many times I had someone call in to ask what the problem might be, that they were having with their bike.......and when i'd ask what model it is they'd say... " I dunno, it's a red one"

 

Thanks again.

[Ernest Buckley]

Two things:

 

1. Slow down the tempo

 

2. Play the part even with all the mistakes, then go back and edit. At least you`ll have some sort of "performance" in there.

 

Then what ggm & craig said.

[ggm1960]

Table 3 can be quite helpful here:

 

http://www.midi.org/techspecs/midimessages.php

 

The decimal numbers like 10, 11 & 64 are some of the most common you'd use.

[Huh?]

That is totally weird. When I first read the replies, I could have sworn all three were from Craig. I did not see ggm's avatar at all. I mean that is so odd because I even looked right at the avatars and I try to be fanatically anal about replying to every person who posts to a thread of mine, most often addressing each person by name.

 

Is is possible there was some glitch or bug because I am having trouble with the Reply to Thread button also? I have to do a Quick Reply and then hit Go Advanced to get into the advanced window. Also HC is extremely slow as far as page loading. It takes much longer than my other forums.

 

So sorry to leave you out there ggm1960. I appreciate the help. Yes I know about the editing stuff below and I use the MIDI Editor window in Pro Tools to grab the velocity stems mostly and also to edit the notes as far as pitch, duration, placement etc. That stuff I am okay with, I have been putzing around with that for a few years and am learning more all the time.

 

For some reason I have not gotten into manipulating CC messages though....it was like the part of MIDI that seemed really difficult to me so I avoided it. I am seeing though that this is really where the magic lies as far as expression, particularly with orchestral samples.

 

Ernest, thanks. Yes I have been noticing that when inputting my "Fender Rhodes" VI my note input sometimes seemed a little rushed. Not rushed in the sense of way off. I have dead nuts meter, I am proud of that fact....... but I'd see that a note here and there is not right on the grid. So I would go in there and drag the note beginnings that were off, to line up with the grid. But then it felt rigid and I realized that I was playing it how I felt it and I was not rushing per se but anticipating :)a little...which as you say gives the performance some "feel"

 

What I need to suss out is the whole step time entry deal.

 

I used to do that of course with drum machines back in the day, but never synths or keyboards in the piano roll. With drum machines it seemed much easier as you can easily see where the beats go, the subdivision of the time signature. Plus it is more linear/horizontal really than vertical, with several different parts...kick, snare, hat, ride. toms 1,2,3 etc all moving along this linear time frame and as far as what I did, all one MIDI channel. With the orchestral players like Kontakt and ARIA with 16 different instruments all on different MIDI channels and also with maybe one instrument playing clusters/vertical harmony, so several different passes for 1 instrument....... it is taking me a long time to wrap my head around it. The routing is just killing me also.

 

For example, I want to practice drawing in chord clusters and arpeggio's etc. In fact, I thought it would be cool to compile a folder of just MIDI files of chords, different voicings and extensions and some chords you would use in various substitutions...the whole schmear.

 

Is that possible....to just make a MIDI file of a single chord that you can drag and drop into any MIDI track? I have never tried saving individual MIDI tracks or portions of one. I only ever just saved entire MIDI tracks as part of a session.

 

I ordered "The Guide To MIDI Orchestration" by Paul Gilreath. Should be here soon.

 

Thanks again everyone. Very helpful, sorry about the long reply here.

 

Just saw your post. Checking now, thanks ggm1960.

[Huh?]

 

Table 3 can be quite helpful here:

 

 

Thanks a ton.......but LOL....I swear, with my ADD I look at a chart like that and my eyes just start spinning in my head....walk away!!!!LOL!! This is exactly why I avoided the CC side of things for so long.

 

Thanks man, I guess what I will try is to take one parameter at a time and work on that until I understand what it is doing and how it is affecting the performance.

 

I take comfort in knowing there seem to be many guitar players out there who struggle with the deeper aspects of MIDI.

[DevilRaysFan]

 

Absolutely! You need to know the piano roll view. Usually beneath that (often you use the mouse to pull up from the bottom of the piano roll window) there is a gold mine of CC input possibilities. All your recorded midi control data will be there and you can edit the heck out of it or add more. One hint; rather than using the volume control msg, opt for the espression msg as it will vary the volume in proportion to the main master volume control.

 

 

+1 ....^^THIS^^.....as a matter of fact, I have been doing this so long that I can tell you that 99% of my keyboard parts I do by mouse...

 

 

Now, one option not mentioned here and that I have told other musicians to do that dont play keyboards and have no background in music theory and MIDI, is to get a Song Creation tool, like in Band-In-A-Box, plug in the key, feel, style, tempo, and instruments that you want and have the computer generate the tracks. You can isolate/solo each MIDI file and save to use individually for your DAW or you can burn down sections that you want to WAV files and use them as loops or one-shots in your DAW as well

[Huh?]

Thanks. I have heard about BIAB. I thought it was all audio loops, no MIDI.

 

BTW, some nice playing there. You have some killer chops!

[philbo]

Your guitar midi controller will automatically add in a ton of CC data. At least mine does (Roland GR-20). And it does add a huge amount towards a realistic sounding track. There will be lots and lots of pitch bend data and expression data; there is no way to avoid it. On the other hand, if you are determined to get the sound as 'sheet music' pure, you're probably better off entering it note by note. I personally feel this makes it sound a bit mechanical, unless you have a lot of expertise at drawing in the CC events or curves.

[Anderton]

 

Your guitar midi controller will automatically add in a ton of CC data...There will be lots and lots of pitch bend data and expression data; there is no way to avoid it.

 

 

However, much of this will be "ghost" data, like notes with velocities of 2 or 3, or doubled notes. Several programs have "edit filters" that will allow you to delete, for example, all notes with velocities under 10 as the assumption is 1) you won't hear a note whose velocity is that low anyway, and 2) it was probably unintended, and a result of a glitch in tracking. This type of processing can really help clean up a MIDI guitar part.

[Huh?]

Oh yes interesting. I have seen the filters in a couple programs and maybe my Axon AX100MkII has that. The Godin triggers a lot of random double note glitches on piano patches when playing sustained chords, without using the hold pedal.

[ggm1960]

 

Thanks a ton.......but LOL....I swear, with my ADD I look at a chart like that and my eyes just start spinning in my head....walk away!!!!LOL!! This is exactly why I avoided the CC side of things for so long. Thanks man, I guess what I will try is to take one parameter at a time and work on that until I understand what it is doing and how it is affecting the performance. I take comfort in knowing there seem to be many guitar players out there who struggle with the deeper aspects of MIDI.

 

 

It's simply a reference chart, I have no idea what a lot of the controllers are used for. Some common ones are used to set up a standard midi file for consistent play, it's good policy to have a few "normalizing" controllers at the beginning of a midi track so that everything gets off to a good start, for example; near the beginning of the midi track place a CC01 message of 0 to be sure the modulation wheel is reset, a CC10 of 64 to center panning, set sustain pedal to 0 (CC64 = 0), determine a volume between 0-127 and put it in as CC07 = n, set the expression (CC11) to 127 and adjust subsequent volume with that for fade outs/ins and etc..

 

You can see all of this easily by looking at table 3.

[DevilRaysFan]

Thanks. I have heard about BIAB. I thought it was all audio loops, no MIDI. BTW, some nice playing there. You have some killer chops!

 

Why, thank you, sir