How can body wood actually affect amp'd tone?

[niceguy]

Just wondering if anyone has a scientific explanation...

 

The science behind amplified guitar is pretty basic: the electromagnets in the pickups convert metal string vibration into electrical impulses.

 

But I just don't see how body wood comes into play.

 

For the record, I can tell that ash guitars usually give a bright tone, mahogany is darker, etc etc. A forumite once built two identical guitars with the same woods, and he held every variable constant---yet the tone were noticeably different.

 

Just looking for some scientific explanations! Maybe we should suggest this to one of those shows on the Discovery or the Science Channel. Though I don't have cable

[Dallygap]

There is a certain amount of vibrations that happens when you knock something, depending on the density of the wood, the relationship with the pickups, the quality of the wood, whether there are big dents or not, will contribute to the overall sound quality. Such as if you knock on a wooden chest or cabinet, you will get different tones from different types of woods, and it will go a certain distance, etc. This isn't necessarily a scientific explanation, but the type of wood definitely contributes to the "brighter" or "darker" tone of the wood so to speak.

[Belva]

It's not so much the wood itself as it is the density. A denser wood such as maple won't absorb as much, vibration wise, as a wood with a more open grain like mahogany. So maple will sound brighter. In theory you could take a piece of balsa with the same density as maple and they'd sound very similar. But the nature of wood eliminates the possibility of finding such a piece of balsa. That's why 2 guitars of the same type of wood can and will sound slightly different. Different density. No 2 pieces of wood are the same. At least that's what my gf tells me.

[flummox]

Just wondering if anyone has a scientific explanation... The science behind amplified guitar is pretty basic: the electromagnets in the pickups convert metal string vibration into electrical impulses. But I just don't see how body wood comes into play. For the record, I can tell that ash guitars usually give a bright tone, mahogany is darker, etc etc. A forumite once built two identical guitars with the same woods, and he held every variable constant---yet the tone were noticeably different. Just looking for some scientific explanations! Maybe we should suggest this to one of those shows on the Discovery or the Science Channel. Though I don't have cable

 

This is my totally anecdotal, non-scientific answer in which I use a lot of big words anyway:

 

The electromagnetic response to the string is the same, but the wood's resonant qualities affect the envelope of the sound. Mahogany, for example, reacts to the inital string attack in a much more rounded way than ash or alder, which responds in a more angular "snap". I just put the bridge pickup from my CV Tele in my mahogany parts-o-tele, and it sounds remarkably different from the pine-bodied CV. Again, it's not the waveform itself that's so different, it's the mechanical way the guitar responds to the notes as you make them.

[Steadfastly]

How can or does it? Actually, all the parts considered, very little. That's why they are called "electric" guitars.

[SomeoneYouKnew]

 

How can or does it? Actually, all the parts considered, very little. That's why they are called "electric" guitars.

The pickups get their signal from the movement of the strings, relative to the pickups.

 

 

1 - The strings are mechanically coupled to the wood, via the bridge (and nut). The vibration of the strings causes vibrations in the wood. The energy lost in moving the wood affects how the string is vibrating. Also, any resonances in the wood may be reflected back into the string motion, via the bridge.

 

2 - The vibrations in the wood move the pickups. Not much, but a little can mean a lot in terms of tone-shaping.

 

 

 

Pickups and bridge construction have more to do with the amplified sound of a guitar than the type of wood. But wood does make a difference.

[Steadfastly]

 

The pickups get their signal from the movement of the strings, relative to the pickups. 1 - The strings are mechanically coupled to the wood, via the bridge (and nut). The vibration of the strings causes vibrations in the wood. The energy lost in moving the wood affects how the string is vibrating. Also, any resonances in the wood may be reflected back into the string motion, via the bridge. 2 - The vibrations in the wood move the pickups. Not much, but a little can mean a lot in terms of tone-shaping. Pickups and bridge construction have more to do with the amplified sound of a guitar than the type of wood. But wood does make a difference.

 

 

You are right. And as I said, very little. And the difference from one wood to another gives that much of a smaller difference and depending on the wood and guitar, it is often just about impossible to hear.

[wimpy77]

 

The pickups get their signal from the movement of the strings, relative to the pickups. 1 - The strings are mechanically coupled to the wood, via the bridge (and nut). The vibration of the strings causes vibrations in the wood. The energy lost in moving the wood affects how the string is vibrating. Also, any resonances in the wood may be reflected back into the string motion, via the bridge. 2 - The vibrations in the wood move the pickups. Not much, but a little can mean a lot in terms of tone-shaping. Pickups and bridge construction have more to do with the amplified sound of a guitar than the type of wood. But wood does make a difference.

 

 

bingo

[garthman]

I've been waiting for a convincing scientific explanation for years. All I get is the usual "resonance of the wood" nonsense (often accompanied by abuse).

 

I think a lot of people believe that a magnetic pickup reproduces the acoustic sound of an electric guitar which, of course, it doesn't. Either that or they've spent a lot of money on their "swamp ash" () guitar and they really convince themselves they can hear something.

 

Spend your money on the electronics, folks, that's what does the business.

[Doctor49]

I've been waiting for a convincing scientific explanation for years. All I get is the usual "resonance of the wood" nonsense (often accompanied by abuse). I think a lot of people believe that a magnetic pickup reproduces the acoustic sound of an electric guitar which, of course, it doesn't. Either that or they've spent a lot of money on their "swamp ash" ( ) guitar and they really convince themselves they can hear something. Spend your money on the electronics, folks, that's what does the business.

 

see the post from Someoneyouknew.

The science there is accurate.

 

The effect on a vibrating string when both ends are fixed to some things that can also move relative to eachother (bridge and nut connected by various pieces of wood) is different from the response when both ends are fixed and cannot move relative to eachother.

This affects the harmonics in the string vibration and hence the perceived sound. So different connections betweeen nut and bridge make a difference.

It is also measurable and I expect if you google for it you will find scientific papers about it.

 

Incidentally pickup location makes a difference as the signal depends inter alia on the place in the waveform of the string that the pickup pole piece is placed. Near to the bridge means it senses less of the low frequency long wavelengths (amplitude near the bridge is small) and more high frequency, giving that brittle or Tele tone.

Neck pick ups get more of the lows (amplitude of lows is greater) and sound generally warmer. Angled start pickups are like that for this reason.

 

So be careful where you put your electronics too.

[cratz2]

Pickups and bridge construction have more to do with the amplified sound of a guitar than the type of wood. But wood does make a difference.

 

/Thread

 

If you have a single pickup guitar with a 52 Tele pickup in it, and you replace that pickup with a Super Distortion, it will sound radically different.

 

If you have a single pickup guitar made of alder with a 52 Tele pickup in it and you replace the body with an ash body and keep the same pickup, sure, it will likely sound a bit different, esp if you can A/B them against each other, but it's not going to be radically transformed from the point that the alder body version is only good for old school country and the ash version is only good for southern rock.

 

 

But the wood definitely has some affect on the tone and the feel of the guitar.

[notjonahbutnoah]

Wood type matters, but the "love" so to speak, when constructing it matters a lot too. Hopefully it's the love of a skilled, experienced luthier.

 

I have two of the same guitar (save for pickups/fretboard wood) except one is an Epi, and one, a Gibson. The Epi is a workhorse carved from stone, great guitar. Toured with it, NOT BASHING EPI HERE!!!! But, when I pick up the Gibson, the entire guitar resonates longer, and I can feel the vibration much more. It can project better than the Epi. That's the "unplugged" verdict.

 

But we're talkin plugged in:

 

The Epi has a JB in it, as did the Gibson when I first bought it. However, I bought the Gibson knowing only that it had Duncans, not which type. I played it before I looked at the bottom of the pickup. It sounded much more round than the Epi, tamed some of the JBs "stiffness" if you will. To be honest, I was surprised to see it was a JB. Better cleans than I would get with the JB in the Epi. Obviously, better drive tones as well.

 

I realize the ebony board probably contributes, but with EVERY other factor the same, I have to attribute this to the construction as a whole. While Gibson, I'm sure, uses "better" mahogany than Epi, the difference was vast enough to tell me that it's not just the wood, but who and how skilled the guy gluing it together is. I say a lot of it is the construction effort as a whole.

 

Give me a $5K slab of the finest whatever, and I will build you the worst sounding guitar you've ever heard.

[EADGBE]

This book can help to explain it.

 

 

In a nutshell wood influences how strings vibrate over the pickups. Flexible wood dampens or attenuates trebles. Heavy wood increases sustain. Extremely strong wood boosts trebles at the expense of bass.

[notjonahbutnoah]

 

. Flexible wood dampens or attenuates trebles. Heavy wood increases sustain. Extremely strong wood boosts trebles at the expense of bass.

 

 

It's.... it's so simple. Makes sense. Thinking about it, this holds true for everything I've experienced.

[ashasha]

I've been waiting for a convincing scientific explanation for years. All I get is the usual "resonance of the wood" nonsense (often accompanied by abuse). I think a lot of people believe that a magnetic pickup reproduces the acoustic sound of an electric guitar which, of course, it doesn't. Either that or they've spent a lot of money on their "swamp ash" ( ) guitar and they really convince themselves they can hear something. Spend your money on the electronics, folks, that's what does the business.

Agreed. But I THINK that the method of converting that string vibration to an electrical signal is irrelevant.

 

Think about it for a second; whether we are inducing a voltage inside of a magnetic field or moving a diaghram with air pressure we are still creating a signal based off of the same exact vibrations. It's like writing with a pen or a pencil; it's still the same information regardless of how we get it to paper.

 

So basically we are still recreating an electrical signal of a mechanical movement; one transferred via air, one via electromagnetism (or whatever it's called).

 

The strings are coupled mechanically to the body of the guitar and their vibration is infulenced by it (this is a fact IMHO or else every guitar would sound exactly the same unplugged). Strings aren't vibrating at one fundamental frequncy, there are harmonics induced by the resonance of the body itself. The amplitude of those harmonics will depend on the level and resonant frequency of the body which would vary based on the wood.

 

All of this is speculation on my part of course.

[niceguy]

It's not so much the wood itself as it is the density. A denser wood such as maple won't absorb as much, vibration wise, as a wood with a more open grain like mahogany. So maple will sound brighter. In theory you could take a piece of balsa with the same density as maple and they'd sound very similar. But the nature of wood eliminates the possibility of finding such a piece of balsa. That's why 2 guitars of the same type of wood can and will sound slightly different. Different density. No 2 pieces of wood are the same. At least that's what my gf tells me.

 

Well now, this does make scientific sense

 

Hm, I wonder. What if the body were made of thick styrofoam? In theory, the foam would absorb nearly all the vibrations, resulting in a very dull tone...

[59humbucker]

Several of the above posters have it right, but I'll reiterate for the many out there that dont get it.

 

The p'ups translate the vibration of the string into a signal that is converted to sound.

 

The variety of vibration in terms of frequency and amplitude is what gives us the pitch and tone.

 

The strings vibration characteristics are produced by the length of the string (where you put your finger or it's nut to bridge scale length) and what it is coupled to.

 

Theres a very simple test as to whether the material the string is coupled to affects the sound, place a piece of foam between the bridge and the string and the nut and the string and see if it sounds the same!

[ihavenofish]

It's.... it's so simple. Makes sense. Thinking about it, this holds true for everything I've experienced.

 

sugar maple is more flexible than mahogany.

indian rosewood is twice as hard and 3 times stiffer, and double the density than sugar maple.

 

debunked already

 

well, sorta. the idea is that the properties of any given wood will alter string vibration. stiffness, hardness, density, oiliness etc. but you cant just pick one and make a generalisation about a boards performance.

 

the real hitch though is that most woods used in guitars have roughly the same properties, and the variability blends all the species together so just because one maple neck is infintesimally brigher than one mahogany neck it wont mean all are.

[guitarcapo]

The type of pickup and how it's adjusted, the electronics that connect that pickup to the amp, the location of the pickup along the string's length, the entire amp's electronics and how they are set, the speakers etc....All THAT stuff is what really contributes to the sound you hear. Whether that guitar is swamp ash or korina or mahogany....the taxonomic species of the wood...is really a drop in the bucket. The bridge type and things like chambering, neck-through etc...probably are more significant than the species of wood.

When you combine the fact that wood varies a lot in properties even WITHIN a species, I wouldn't bother worrying about it. Maybe just keep it in mind when you are thinking about how heavy the guitar will be. Maybe a species that's generally brighter and denser should be chambered to avoid weight issues etc...Really expensive exotic wood species get way to much hype in terms of sound.

[ballhawk]

The responses have hit on most of the scientific explanations for differences in woods and tonalities. I just wanted to add that bacon grease is another factor to consider. If course you have hickory smoked vs. maple flavored thick slab, etc, etc.

[ihavenofish]

The responses have hit on most of the scientific explanations for differences in woods and tonalities. I just wanted to add that bacon grease is another factor to consider. If course you have hickory smoked vs. maple flavored thick slab, etc, etc.

 

maple smoked canadian bacon has the best tone.

[flump]

 

The type of pickup and how it's adjusted, the electronics that connect that pickup to the amp, the location of the pickup along the string's length, the entire amp's electronics and how they are set, the speakers etc....All THAT stuff is what really contributes to the sound you hear. Whether that guitar is swamp ash or korina or mahogany....the taxonomic species of the wood...is really a drop in the bucket. The bridge type and things like chambering, neck-through etc...probably are more significant than the species of wood. When you combine the fact that wood varies a lot in properties even WITHIN a species, I wouldn't bother worrying about it. Maybe just keep it in mind when you are thinking about how heavy the guitar will be. Maybe a species that's generally brighter and denser should be chambered to avoid weight issues etc...Really expensive exotic wood species get way to much hype in terms of sound.

 

 

This pretty much exactly. It does but compared to the 9000 other things that contribute to your tone it is almost none. Turning up your mid knob or treble knob on your amp 1 single notch will most likely have more of an impact, or changing to a fresh set of strings, or changing string size, pickups, adjusting the pickup height...hell changing pot values, tone cap values...etc.

[Angry Tele]

live trees respire

[Steadfastly]

sugar maple is more flexible than mahogany.

 

So a sugar maple body will give you that sweet sound!:poke:

[stormin1155]

 

The pickups get their signal from the movement of the strings, relative to the pickups. 1 - The strings are mechanically coupled to the wood, via the bridge (and nut). The vibration of the strings causes vibrations in the wood. The energy lost in moving the wood affects how the string is vibrating. Also, any resonances in the wood may be reflected back into the string motion, via the bridge. 2 - The vibrations in the wood move the pickups. Not much, but a little can mean a lot in terms of tone-shaping. Pickups and bridge construction have more to do with the amplified sound of a guitar than the type of wood. But wood does make a difference.

 

 

 

I agree with your first point. Your second point may have some impact, but probably negligible.

 

The point that nobody has mentioned so far is that all pickups are micro-phonic to some degree or another. Pickups that are wax potted or encased in plastic like EMGs would be much less so. But the degree to which a pickup is micro-phonic, it will pick up some of the acoustical sound off the body.