Members Bro Blue Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 If you two think a pedal does nothing to change the nature and attributes of the amp...you are either total IDIOTS, or have some secret magical pedal. You have a lot of nerve calling someone an idiot. It doesn't matter what the hell you put in front of an amp it will still have the same tubes in the pre and power amp. The preamp will still function as it always has, and the power amp will still work as it always did. The variable is the signal. A pedal does not change a 6L6 power section to an EL84 power section. Three 12XA7s will not be changed to four by use of one or more pedals. The tone stack does not change because you go straight into an amp versus using a multi-FX. What the hell is so hard for you to understand? A thing is what it is. What you feed it does make a difference (and no one has disputed that) but the nature and attributes do not change. You can not start the evening with a class A amp, plug pedals into it, and change it to a class AB. Your example of a canvas falls short because paint and canvas bond on the molecular level. There is nothing in the amp/effect/guitar relationship that is like that. Next time you decide to call someone an idiot, be sure you know what the {censored} you're talking about. And leave Frets the {censored} out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BoneNut Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 I would be curious to know how many people have actually turned up a 100 watt tube amp, with no gain channel, to get real tube breakup.....where 'distortion' first came from...before pedals and pre amps... That's a rhetorical question by the way, because to wind up an amp to tube break up is so stupid loud most have never done it...and by the way...real tube break up isn't as wondrous as people think it is.... So much for tube tone...but if you don't believe me, go down to Guitar center, dime that Fender Reverb and see how it sounds to you... That I'm able to sit here and type is proof I've never dimed a 100watt amp!The only amp I've ever had I could turn up enough to have the power tubes cooking, was a Dr. Z Carmen Ghia. At 18 watts and with a 2x12, that was loud but ok in a loud jam situation. It was wonderful though. In reality, once the volume knob was over half way up, it didn't get any louder, it just changed the way the saturation sounded. Very creamy overdrive. Spectacular to hear. Wonderful amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SomeoneYouKnew Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 If you're playing through a pedal, even if it's connected to a tube amp, aren't you essentially still playing through a solid state amp?Have millions of guitarists been fooled all these years?No, you definitely are not. You aren't playing through an "all tube" system any longer, but calling a tube amp with a pedal in front a "solid state amp" is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scud133 Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 You're all wrong, only pedals with delicate crystal lattice transistors will preserve the tube-like quality of the amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SomeoneYouKnew Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 You're all wrong, only pedals with delicate crystal lattice transistors will preserve the tube-like quality of the amp.Go eat your crystal lettuce somewhere else, salad-boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Angry Tele Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 Tubes are an endangered species anyway..thats one of the reasons Leo sold Fender, because solid state was gonna put him out of business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EADGBE Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 If you're playing through a pedal, even if it's connected to a tube amp, aren't you essentially still playing through a solid state amp?Have millions of guitarists been fooled all these years? A solid state pedal played through a tube amp will sound different than a solid state pedal played through a solid state amp. I rarely use effects myself. I prefer a high gain tube amp to a medium gain tube amp and pedal combination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pope on a Rope Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 But what if you are playing a modeling preamp into the amp it's modeling? Does it sound more or less like the amp you're modeling? They would phase each other out and you would hear nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MahaloVision Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 But what if you are playing a modeling preamp into the amp it's modeling? Does it sound more or less like the amp you're modeling? Ah, yes. The Inception Conundrum. Fascinating. Imagine how many levels deep you could go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Angry Tele Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 Keef's amps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SomeoneYouKnew Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 Perhaps the MOST IMPORTANT question ever asked on HCEGF... Perhaps not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jrockbridge Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 Perhaps, the short answer is that, "There is no spoon.". After all, what are we going to define as a tube amp? Many guitar amps contain tubes, but how many amps contain no solid state parts? At what point of solid state integration in sections of an amp will it become a hybrid?The reality is that by varying the signal path, the feel and sound can be changed. There are solid state pedals like Suhr Riot, for example that feel, react and sound remarkably amp like. Older pedals like the Boss Metal Zone MT2 will make even the purist tube signal path sound artificial. The lines between solid state, tube and digital are so interconnected that it's a bit pointless to try and separate them. With the exception of a few solid state amps built for crisp clean sound that owes nothing to the tube, the majority of new amp, modeler and drive pedals are trying to emulate tube coloration. In many cases, the designs are succeeding so well that some of the top talent pool of our time use some type of emulation to get a vintage sound. Personally, I strive for warm clear sound. I can put a Real Tube pedal in front of a Vstack amp and it feels dramatically different. A Riot in front of a low volume clean tube amp reacts and sounds remarkably like the gain channel on a boutique tube amp...which probably explains why Guthrie Govan is often seen using that pedal. Meanwhile, a Damage Control sounds wonderul through a cranked tube amp, but less impressive with the same amp at low volume. It is such a great time to be a guiarist! There is no spoon! There are no rules! Experiment! Have fun! The possibilities are waiting for our discovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ferdinandstrat Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 Does it really matter? Tubes are an endangered species anyway.. What are you smoking? I could sure use some of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StevenJM Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 What are you smoking?I could sure use some of that. its true... other than guitar amps, nothing uses tubes anymore. there used to be plenty of brands that carried every type of tube, and now today only guitar amp brands seem to make them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bryvincent Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 its true... other than guitar amps, nothing uses tubes anymore. there used to be plenty of brands that carried every type of tube, and now today only guitar amp brands seem to make them.some High-end/Boutique Hi-fi audio stereo systems still use tubes. but guitar amps and hi-fi are the only 2 i can think of that currently still use tubes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ferdinandstrat Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 its true... other than guitar amps, nothing uses tubes anymore. there used to be plenty of brands that carried every type of tube, and now today only guitar amp brands seem to make them. I meant in guitar amps. I dont give a crap about other audio devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Angry Tele Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 but for guitar amps? THATS ALL WE CARE ABOUT OMG LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jrockbridge Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 If tubes are such a dinosaur, why is every hot piece of gear emulating vintage tube coloration? Even if the tubes are completely gone one day, their sound signatures and legacy will live on in the afterlife known as eternal emulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ferdinandstrat Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 but for guitar amps? THATS ALL WE CARE ABOUT OMG LOL Well you guys kinda act that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scuzzo Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 any magicl mojo is negated if the signal is digital going in to it... all the tube will do is color the digital signal a bit.. so mho its a digital signal.. with a tube effect.. the only true analog is analog into analog analog + digital +analog is digital.. its still a processed signal thats hitting the tube.. any time you add digital into the equation its going to be a representation of the signal.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 17 Tubes Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 I would be curious to know how many people have actually turned up a 100 watt tube amp, with no gain channel, to get real tube breakup.....where 'distortion' first came from...before pedals and pre amps...That's a rhetorical question by the way, because to wind up an amp to tube break up is so stupid loud most have never done it...and by the way...real tube break up isn't as wondrous as people think it is....So much for tube tone...but if you don't believe me, go down to Guitar center, dime that Fender Reverb and see how it sounds to you... I'm not sure that's the whole entire concept. There's all kinds of things involved....your speakers, your guitar. And it's not just playing in your bedroom. If you have a venue and the right genre....you *could* probably get closed to "diming". But all things considered and dependent on each other...you may not need to do that. I start to get a nice "tube breakup" at about 5 on my '64 Twin. It's a little loud...but not stupid crazy full stack loud either. Certainly power soak gets the real deal at listening volume...and I assure you it is a glorious sound.; AGAIN! All the components considered...including an adept player. If you wanna listen to as close to true tube amp breakup as you can get...check out The Why Store. He cranks up his Fenders (placed off stage) and you can REALLY tell the difference between that and pedal/preamp distortion. It's wonderful...for his gig in anyway. Godsmack...maybe not so much..not that I care about them...just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 17 Tubes Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 You have a lot of nerve calling someone an idiot. It doesn't matter what the hell you put in front of an amp it will still have the same tubes in the pre and power amp. The preamp will still function as it always has, and the power amp will still work as it always did. The variable is the signal. A pedal does not change a 6L6 power section to an EL84 power section. Three 12XA7s will not be changed to four by use of one or more pedals. The tone stack does not change because you go straight into an amp versus using a multi-FX. What the hell is so hard for you to understand? A thing is what it is. What you feed it does make a difference (and no one has disputed that) but the nature and attributes do not change. You can not start the evening with a class A amp, plug pedals into it, and change it to a class AB. Your example of a canvas falls short because paint and canvas bond on the molecular level. There is nothing in the amp/effect/guitar relationship that is like that.Next time you decide to call someone an idiot, be sure you know what the {censored} you're talking about. And leave Frets the {censored} out of it. aw...did I hurt your feewings? So....tell me this smart (and fragile) guy...if a tube amp DOESN'T change it's characteristics with a pedal in front...why do people do it? Easy... BECAUSE IT CHANGES IT'S CHACTERISTICS......THAT'S WHY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 If you're playing through a pedal, even if it's connected to a tube amp, aren't you essentially still playing through a solid state amp?Have millions of guitarists been fooled all these years? In my opinion you are playing through a "hybrid" if solid state is being used to increase the gain of the signal. The pedal is "amplifying things". If it's just filtering the signal and shaping it, it's no more "solid state" than the transistors and caps are in the signal path inside the amp. The Blackstar HT-5 is a good example of a hybrid amp with the pedal mixed in on the insides of the amp. But the definition of what is and what isn't a "tube amp" is pretty arbitrary.I would offer up the opinion that any situation where you have a tube in the amp amplifying the signal, at the most you can call it a "hybrid amp" and not "solid state" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bro Blue Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 No, you didn't hurt my feelings, you pissed me off because I know there's one more ignorant bastard capable of making little ignorant bastards in this world. Listen up ******, because I'm only going to say this once - it changes sound the tube amp amplifies, but it does not change what a tube amp is or does. What is so hard for you to understand about that? Perhaps if you took your head out of your ass it would be easier to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 17 Tubes Posted October 18, 2010 Members Share Posted October 18, 2010 No, you didn't hurt my feelings, you pissed me off because I know there's one more ignorant bastard capable of making little ignorant bastards in this world.Listen up ******, because I'm only going to say this once - it changes sound the tube amp amplifies, but it does not change what a tube amp is or does. What is so hard for you to understand about that? Perhaps if you took your head out of your ass it would be easier to read. Perhaps we got off on the wrong foot here. Let me apologize if I offended you. In my opinion if you a) change the sound the tube amp amplifies you b) change the characteristics of the amp Maybe there isn't enough "gain"? You change the characteristics. Maybe not enough sustain? You change the characteristics. Maybe not tight enough? You can change that too. If you slam the front end...the amp is gonna react different. It will have different characteristics. You are just looking at it as pure amplification...and there's a LOT more to tube amps...(ss too!) than just tube amplification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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