Wrap around bridge vs Tune-a-matic + Stop bar - Tone difference opinions - Please

[GAS Man]

You know, on comparable models.

 

Like say this

 

 

Versus this:

 

 

(now those aren't comparable since one is VOS CS, but just for the visuals)

 

Now I would think that the tune-o-matic + stopbar would actually sound better since there are more points of contact with string energy into different areas of the tone wood body BUT it seems like I've read comments here that suggest others have found the tone to be superior on the single wrap around models.

 

Whether it be a flat top like the above, or an arched top Les Paul, I'm curious to hear from those who have played both on very similar designed and grade guitars.

[theManfromAlabam]

I've read the same thing where many people feel the single wrap around bridge guitars are more desirable because they have superior tone to that of guitars with the tune-amatic stop tail bar bridge combinations.

 

My experience with single wrap around bridge guitars is that they tend to not stay in tune as well or as long than guitars fitted with tune-a-matic stop tail bars.

[artiem]

The Tune-o-matic is a vast improvement on the wraparound. There's a reason Gibson settled on the Tune-o-matic around 1956 and never looked back.

 

The wraparound is just a nostalgia play, IMO.

[Wyatt]

 

You know, on comparable models. Like say this Versus this: (now those aren't comparable since one is VOS CS, but just for the visuals) Now I would think that the tune-a-matic + stopbar would actually sound better since there are more points of contact with string energy into different areas of the tone wood body BUT it seems like I've read comments here that suggest others have found the tone to be superior on the single wrap around models . Whether it be a flat top like the above, or an arched top Les Paul, I'm curious to hear from those who have played both on very similar designed and grade guitars.

 

 

Other way around. All of those separate parts and joints of the TOM "leak" energy. The each string transfers to a separate small saddle then to a tiny screw then to the base then the posts finally the wood/studs. The tolerances are wide, surface contact is minimal and nonrigid. In order to efficiently transfer energy you want as rigid contact across a large enough surface area to effectively transfer (too large could be bad as well...think of the old hammer to the textbook over the hand trick from high school physics) If any piece can vibrate freely from another, then energy is being lost because those virbations are not being transferred.

 

The string contact with the tailpiece is almost inconsequential because almost all the energy is transfer or lost at the bridge.

 

Compared to a wraparound where all the strings transfer energy to one piece of metal which transfers to two thick posts then to studs. Still some areas to lose energy, but not as many and , in theory, you would get more sympathetic vibrations by the shared string anchor.

 

The difference is usually you get a more aggressive and fuller sounding attack on the note.

 

You would never consider using TOM on an acoustic would you?

 

Electric, especially rock, guitarists obsess about intonation to the point of incapacitation considering it's near impossible to have any third of the fretboard in tune with the other two at any giving time (save for tempered frets, Buzz Feiten, etc.). Classical guitars, flatpickers, acoustic jazz players, banjo players, etc. all just learn to temper tunings and adjust fretting pressure to what sounds right.

[GAS Man]

All of those separate parts and joints of the TOM "leak" energy. The each string transfers to a separate small saddle then to a tiny screw then to the base then the posts finally the wood/studs. The tolerances are wide.. If any piece can vibrate freely from another, then energy is being lost because those vibrations are not being transferred. The string contact with the tailpiece is almost inconsequential because almost all the energy is transfer or lost at the bridge. Compared to a wraparound where all the strings transfer energy to one piece of metal which transfers to two thick posts then to studs. Still some areas to lose energy, but not as many and , in theory, you would get more sympathetic vibrations by the shared string anchor. You would never consider using TOM on an acoustic would you?.

 

[goosefartfan]

The Tune-o-matic is a vast improvement on the wraparound. There's a reason Gibson settled on the Tune-o-matic around 1956 and never looked back. The wraparound is just a nostalgia play, IMO.

 

^^^^^^^^^

THIS

 

You can't intonate a wraparound stop bridge.

 

Re: the nonsense about thicker posts transmitting more vibrations....

 

All Strats have lousy tone b/c of the tremolo bridge, riiiiiiiiight? It's the opposite of two manly post secured tightly in the body!!

 

Why, in a Strat, all the strings are connected to a floating bridge that is attached to springs that absorb all the vibrations before it reaches the body!!

[GAS Man]

I think strats are a bit of a different critter though since A) they generally use a lighter wood than Gibsons (although that is more dubious with recent models), B) the springs are said to create a bit of an internal reverb tone which partly characterizes the tone of a Strat.

 

And even then, the same debate goes on with the strats with some contending that 6-pt trem is better tone than 2-pt and hardtail is even better still.

 

[paul44]

I have both tune-o-matics and a Jr with a wraparound.It's just plain wrong to say a wraparound can't be intonated properly.Both are rock solid if set up properly.You pays yer money and takes yer choice.

[Wyatt]

^^^^^^^^^ THIS You can't intonate a wraparound stop bridge. Re: the nonsense about thicker posts transmitting more vibrations.... All Strats have lousy tone b/c of the tremolo bridge, riiiiiiiiight? It's the opposite of two manly post secured tightly in the body!! Why, in a Strat, all the strings are connected to a floating bridge that is attached to springs that absorb all the vibrations before it reaches the body!!

 

There is a reason for the sustain block in a Strat and why it has such a massive effect on tone.

 

And there is a reason why 6 screw trems sound different from 2 stud trems. (Gas Man beat me to this)

 

And a biggest reason, by far, why Tele's sound different from Strats is the hardtail vs. trem.

 

There are wraparounds that allow for better intonation for the troublesome B and G strings. And the rest is knowing how to set it up. But I still hold accurate intonation is a myth. You can't intonate a guitar to be in tune on the open chords and bard chords past the 5th fret, like-wise you can't intonate those bar chords with the same one octave up. That's why it's important to learn to hear and adjust your playing and quit freaking pout of the false security of a adjustable bridge.

[Wyatt]

The fact is, if someone hasn't owned and used a wraparound bridge for a while, they'll really just blowing smoke out of their ass with their opinions of it. They declare it archaic without really seeing what it is all about.

 

Ted McCarty oversaw the introduction the TOM and yet he always felt that solid bridges were superior, and he convinced Paul Reed Sm ith when they were developing the PRS McCarty.

[Yarbicus]

Strings through FTW!

 

[GAS Man]

Part of the reason, by z way, that I'm asking is I'm in the running for a VOS 1960 LP Jr. Spc on the bay. I always figured I wanted the tune-a-matic + stopbar version and would have to be TV Yellow, but this white one (with wrap-around) is at a decent price used.

 

About 8 minutes to go.

[Wyatt]

Part of the reason, by z way, that I'm asking is I'm in the running for a VOS 1960 LP Jr. Spc on the bay. I always figured I wanted the tune-a-matic + stopbar version and would have to be TV Yellow, but this white one is at a decent price used. About 8 minutes to go.

 

If you are getting a Junior or Special, get the wraparound.

 

You wouldn't buy a Telecaster with a TOM on it when you want a real Tele, would you?

 

You can also add intonation with a Badass, Pigtail, Hipshot bridge or likewise.

[GAS Man]

You quoted me before I slipped in my edit "(with a wrap-around)".

 

And the auction ended on ebay.

 

 

Good News / Bad News.

 

 

Bad news: I won it. $$s go :lem: GAS addict

 

Good news: I won it!

 

$1435 + $65 shipped for what he describes as a minty 1960 VOS LP Jr Spec

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=140469520613&si=CPQ7AKR3UJnBqkXKTANCjBH%252B6JE%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

 

Originally he had it as a "Buy It Now" at $1,700 +$65 shipping, but rather than bids, he also had a "Make Offer" option which I took.

 

At one pt he dropped it down to $1500 BIN, and then raised it back up to $1700 BIN. So I guessed he'd probably be willing to take $1500 and catch the shipping. Unfortunately for my bank account, I was right.

[EADGBE]

I like a bridge that has adjustable intonation best.

[Wyatt]

You quoted me before I slipped in my edit "(with a wrap-around)". And the auction ended on ebay. Good News / Bad News. Bad news: I won it. $$s go :lem: GAS addict Good news: I won it! $1435 + $65 shipped for what he describes as a minty 1960 VOS LP Jr Spec http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=140469520613&si=CPQ7AKR3UJnBqkXKTANCjBH%252B6JE%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT Originally he had it as a "Buy It Now" at $1,700 +$65 shipping, but rather than bids, he also had a "Make Offer" option which I took. At one pt he dropped it down to $1500 BIN, and then raised it back up to $1700 BIN. So I guessed he'd probably be willing to take $1500 and catch the shipping. Unfortunately for my bank account, I was right.

 

That's about $400 less than what they usually sell for used. I think you got a great deal.

[GAS Man]

That's about $400 less than what they usually sell for used. I think you got a great deal.

 

Good to hear. I'm not usually scoping the used VOS market. As I mentioned above, I really thought I'd like to go TV Yellow, but I think I would have been paying more of a premium if that had been the case. And white was always my second choice.

 

Now I'll have to think about whether or not any of these two should be sacrificed at the altar for this new acquisition.

 

 

 

Looking at this pic I'm just now thinking, "hey, I could do my own wrap vs tune+ST comparison, but they are apples and oranges. One's a P-90 the other is P-100s. I actually have bonded more with the Special in this group (like to have two p'ups), although the single P-90 Jr has just a bit more vibe going for it. But I'm hoping this VOS will be a better select of wood.

 

Good point about the McCarty by the way.

[GAS Man]

I originally found that guitar from a post by Fuzztone. I'll have to start avoiding his threads, this is the 2nd guitar I've bought that he posted.

 

A pick from the ebay auction:

 

[Darkstorm]

A high qaulity wrap around can be as good as a high qaulity tune-o-matic in my experience. I have owned same model guitars with that single difference. However I like tune-o-matic with stop bar and tune-o-matic with string thru body better. Visual thing I geauss. Lol. If nothing else, the advantage of tune-o-matic is its easier to find replacement bridge that easilly fits. If wanting to change from chrome to black hardware for example. Or to put heavier or locking one on.

[LaXu]

I used to own a doubleneck guitar that had a stringthru + TOM and tailpiece + TOM necks. There was no difference in sustain or tone between the two necks. Likewise I haven't heard there being any difference with wraparound bridges vs Tune-o-Matics.

 

For a wraparound I'd still like the possibility for individual string intonation. My Flaxwood has one of the Gotoh bridges that has pieces for A/D and G/B string intonation adjustment and it can be a bit troublesome. There are wraparound bridges with individual string adjustment too.

[Belva]

Tonewise, you'll have more impact by changing into clean underwear.

Wraps can intonate just fine. I have a GFS el cheapo wrap around on one of mine. Can't adjust the saddles. Ain't none. But if you have everything else in order this isn't an issue. Too many people have intonation problems and tweak the bridge before checking neck relief, nut, frets, tuners and all else. They all have an effect. Those who say differently haven't been working on other peoples guitars for the last 2+ years like I have.

[GAS Man]

Tonewise, you'll have more impact by changing into clean underwear.

 

Ah! The Tonez is in the Shortz!

[theManfromAlabam]

I originally found that guitar from a post by Fuzztone. I'll have to start avoiding his threads, this is the 2nd guitar I've bought that he posted. A pick from the ebay auction:

 

LOL! I need to avoid threads posted by Fuzztone as well.

 

Beautiful guitar

[GAS Man]

LOL! I need to avoid threads posted by Fuzztone as well. Beautiful guitar

 

Thanks. My wife won't "get it" when it shows up though. I'll have to try to explain to her the whole VOS thing. It would be nice if there were just some static cling decals of a flame top I could put on it just to get it past her initial disapproval reaction to a plain white guitar.

 

Apparently that guitar was used in a show at the 2009 NAMM. I believe that's what the pic above is about.

[Belva]

The wives never get it. Unless they play guitar as well. Then you may argue over who gets to play it first.

BTW dirty underwear is where the toanz is. The whole relic thang.