Equal string action up and down the fretboard

[radomu]

Is it possible?

[C-4]

Your statement can mean two different things.

1. Do you mean equal tension on each string, or pounds of pull per each string?

2. Or do you mean equal action height for each string?

 

1. There is a way to get as close to equal string tension as possible by reading a chart that has string tensions. I believe it is found on the D'Addario string site. Try Googling it.

 

I had to do this to custom gauge my string sets, which is all I use from GHS. The tensions, or pounds of pull per string, are as close as their strings will allow as per their gauge listings.

 

2.There is also a way to set the action height on some guitars more easily then others. For example, on Fender guitars with the tilt adjustment hole on the neck plate, you first have to have the neck set as straight as is possible. Then adjust the tilt through the neck plate up until the neck and strings run parallel to the board. You will need to site the neck from the nut down as you would a rifle, and check to see the height of the two "E" strings in relation to the top of the fretboard. I have done this as well on other guitars, but if the guitar has a set neck, I usualy use a slight back-bow on the neck. I have never experienced a string buzz after this has been done if it is done correctly. It takes a bit of practice, but I always get the lowest possible action on the guitar.

 

Right now I am using a carbon fiber XOX Handle guitar that is one piece from peghead to the butt end of the guitar. My action at the 24th fret is 1/16th inch.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Stephen

[radomu]

 

Your statement can mean two different things. 1. Do you mean equal tension on each string? 2. Or do you mean equal action height for each string? 1. There is a way to get as close to equal string tension as possible by reading a chart that has string tensions. I believe it is found on the D'Addario string site. Try Googling it. I had to do this to custom gauge my string sets, which is all I use from GHS. the tensions are as close as their strings will allow as per their gauge listings. 2.There is also a way to set the action height on some guitars more easily then others. For example, on Fender guitars with the tilt adjustment hole on the neck plate, you first have to have the neck set as straight as is possible. Then adjust the tilt through the neck plate up until the neck and strings run parallel to the board. you will need to site the neck from the nut down as you would a rifle. I have done this as well on other guitars, but if the guitar has a set neck, I usualy use a slight back-bow on the neck. I have never experienced a string buzz after this has been done if it is done correctly. it takes a bit of practice, but I always get the lowest possible action on the guitar. Right now I am using a carbon fiber XOX Handle guitar that is one piece from peghead to the butt end of the guitar. My action at the 24th fret is 1/16th inch. I hope this helps. Stephen

 

 

My mistake, I was talking about number 2.

 

I have a SG-style guitar so it would be a set neck. Can you explain to me what you mean by a "slight back-bow"?

[PrawnHeed]

Practically, the answer is no.

[Jkater]

you should aim for equal tension and feel not equal height which can't be done if the string is to vibrate in a normal way. If it's low enough at the 15th fret, it's gona be low enough everywhere else.

[BoneNut]

On a bolt on, you can practically get equal height action up and down the neck. Sometimes that requires using a shim and having a very well cut nut. With a set neck, you're stuck with how it comes from the factory. Still, the action will always be higher the higher you go up the neck.

 

I only have one set neck now and although the neck angle is damn near perfect, it could still be improved millimetricly. That's one of the reasons I prefer bolt on necks.

[tribalfusion]

What you are talking about is what Holdsworth does; 25" radius boards with no relief and consistent action all over...

 

Check him out

[radomu]

What you are talking about is what Holdsworth does; 25" radius boards with no relief and consistent action all over... Check him out

 

where?

[poolshark]

 

2.There is also a way to set the action height on some guitars more easily then others. For example, on Fender guitars with the tilt adjustment hole on the neck plate, you first have to have the neck set as straight as is possible. Then adjust the tilt through the neck plate up until the neck and strings run parallel to the board. You will need to site the neck from the nut down as you would a rifle, and check to see the height of the two "E" strings in relation to the top of the fretboard. I have done this as well on other guitars, but if the guitar has a set neck, I usualy use a slight back-bow on the neck. I have never experienced a string buzz after this has been done if it is done correctly. It takes a bit of practice, but I always get the lowest possible action on the guitar.

 

 

What are you guys on about? Set necks vs. bolt-on has near nothing to do with it. Adjusting string height is done primarily at the bridge, and the only purpose of changing neck angle (by shimming the neck on a bolt-on) is to make up for limited adjustment range at the bridge. In my experience, any well built set neck guitar will have more than enough adjustment range at the bridge; I don't know about you, but I've never had a set neck guitar on which the saddles would bottom out before the strings.

 

To the OP:

 

The way I understand it, having identical string height all over the guitar is possible, but highly impractical due to the convex way a string vibrates. When you pluck a string, it essentially shakes 'wider' at the center of its vibrating length, and not as 'wide' at either end; in the case of a guitar, this means that the relevant point of 'widest' vibration, no matter where you fret the string, is always going to be above the 12th fret.

 

Logically, if you want 100% even no-buzz action across the board, the lowest height of that action will be dictated by the 'widest' vibrating point in your string. The 'width' of that point of vibration will change with a few factors - string gauge, scale length, how hard you pick - but it will always be your limiting factor, and it'll always be in the middle of your vibrating length of string. Therefore, to have even action across the board, it'll need to match your minimum action in the 12-24 fret region.

 

And that's why it's a bad idea.

 

I think.

[brianeharmonjr]

No, unless you make the action too high at the nut. A string vibrates in an elliptical pattern, so you need more clearance at the 12th fret than you do on the first fret. An absolutely perfectly straight neck and absolutely perfectly leveled frets still would not have the same clearance on the 1st and 12th frets in a perfect setup.

[Jkater]

If you want equal action over the whole register, play keyboards.

[radomu]

 

What are you guys on about? Set necks vs. bolt-on has near nothing to do with it. Adjusting string height is done primarily at the bridge, and the only purpose of changing neck angle (by shimming the neck on a bolt-on) is to make up for limited adjustment range at the bridge . In my experience, any well built set neck guitar will have more than enough adjustment range at the bridge; I don't know about you, but I've never had a set neck guitar on which the saddles would bottom out before the strings. To the OP: The way I understand it, having identical string height all over the guitar is possible, but highly impractical due to the convex way a string vibrates. When you pluck a string, it essentially shakes 'wider' at the center of its vibrating length, and not as 'wide' at either end; in the case of a guitar, this means that the relevant point of 'widest' vibration, no matter where you fret the string, is always going to be above the 12th fret. Logically, if you want 100% even no-buzz action across the board, the lowest height of that action will be dictated by the 'widest' vibrating point in your string. The 'width' of that point of vibration will change with a few factors - string gauge, scale length, how hard you pick - but it will always be your limiting factor, and it'll always be in the middle of your vibrating length of string. Therefore, to have even action across the board, it'll need to match your minimum action in the 12-24 fret region. And that's why it's a bad idea. I think.

 

 

I think that makes perfect sense...

[mrbrown49]

When I set up a guitar I strive for even feeling action all the way up the board. Setting the nut action and relief just right are key to meeting that goal IMO. I set the nut action so that fretting at the first fret doesn't feel any different from fretting anywhere else. A poorly setup guitar often feels stiff on the first few frets.

 

The bridge action and nut action also interact in a way that sets the string angle in relation to the fret plane, so those two play off each other and need to be adjusted according to the overall setup. For example setting the nut action too low for a guitar set for medium-high bridge action will feel stiff as you play up the board because the string angle is too steep. It will sort of feel like you are playing uphill.

 

So all things things need to be in balance as well as the instrument allows to play even over the entire board.

[Mind Riot]

I don't think having equal action along the entire length of the neck would be a good thing.

 

When I cut a nut, I cut the string slots down to between .005" and .015" of clearance at the first fret. The string clearance at the twelfth fret will be around 3-5/64ths (if I've done all the fret and nut and setup work).

 

I don't think it'd feel very good to play a guitar with 1/16" of clearance at the first fret.

 

You can certainly get a guitar to feel like the action is very even if the fret and nut work has been done with precision and care. But in mathematical terms it will always be rising the closer to the bridge you get, as it should be.

[BoneNut]

 

What are you guys on about? Set necks vs. bolt-on has near nothing to do with it. Adjusting string height is done primarily at the bridge, and the only purpose of changing neck angle (by shimming the neck on a bolt-on) is to make up for limited adjustment range at the bridge . In my experience, any well built set neck guitar will have more than enough adjustment range at the bridge; I don't know about you, but I've never had a set neck guitar on which the saddles would bottom out before the strings. To the OP: The way I understand it, having identical string height all over the guitar is possible, but highly impractical due to the convex way a string vibrates. When you pluck a string, it essentially shakes 'wider' at the center of its vibrating length, and not as 'wide' at either end; in the case of a guitar, this means that the relevant point of 'widest' vibration, no matter where you fret the string, is always going to be above the 12th fret. Logically, if you want 100% even no-buzz action across the board, the lowest height of that action will be dictated by the 'widest' vibrating point in your string. The 'width' of that point of vibration will change with a few factors - string gauge, scale length, how hard you pick - but it will always be your limiting factor, and it'll always be in the middle of your vibrating length of string. Therefore, to have even action across the board, it'll need to match your minimum action in the 12-24 fret region. And that's why it's a bad idea. I think.

 

 

Shimming isn't a bad idea and is a common practice in bolt on neck guitars. Remember that you don't stick a big piece of wood under the heel of the neck or anything radical like that, it's just a thin piece of veneer or a thin pick.

 

If you don't agree with this method, definitely don't use it in your guitar but if you are interested in learning more, there are many, many, sites explaining it on the web and both players and techs have been doing it for around 40 years.

[tribalfusion]

 

where?

 

 

I'm really over the moon with these Steinberger guitars. The necks are specially made for me. They're made with no relief, 'cause I've never believed in that. I don't believe in that theory at all. It doesn't make sense. I know why they did it on old acoustic guitars with a big action, just because the string where it vibrates the most in the middle is more likely to buzz. But it causes problems all over the guitar. The best way to me is to take two straight lines; so the neck's made with no relief, and it's got a 20in radius, so it's really flat, and Jim Dunlop 6000 frets, so they're really high. There's something about the guitar when the neck's got an underbow in it, it feels soggy in the middle.'

 

Since then he has gone even flatter with 25" and no relief

 

http://www.fingerprintsweb.net/ah/press/jj0592.html

[Belva]

Seems to me you could theoretically come close to that goal by going with high frets at the nut and low frets toward the bridge, gradually stepping down as you go. But getting them level would be a major pita and probably would feel just plain strange. If your frets are level, properly crowned and well polished the action in the higher registers can be set pretty low. Specially if your nut is cut right. I prefer my action higher than I used to anyway so it's a moot point.

[Angry Tele]

no

[WRGKMC]

There are several factors why guitars are set the way they are. 1. Strings bend the easiest when depressed in the center because the depressed string has two equal lengths to pull from. This is also where intonation is set for unison above the 12th fret. 2. as you get closer to the nut, the travel to the fret needs to be less so the string doesnt bend sharp, so not only are the strings at the lowest point, but the nut is graduated so the thinner strings are closer bend less and resist finger pressure to bend sharp, but the thicker strings are less susceptable to being bent sharp at the frets and will alos clear the fretboard to prevent buzzing when played open. 3. the frets get smaller up the neck to not only create higher notes but they also compensate for the greater bending that occurs in the higher registers.

 

You could have the nut and bridge adjusted so the strings are an even height above the full length of the neck, but this is normally only used for slide guitar where you want to avoid banging frets with the slide depressing the string for good contact.

 

I'd say the only instrument I own that gets close to having strings parallel to the fretboard is my electric sitar. They are a wierd beast because the string length isnt fixed at the bridge and the strings shorten because of the concave surface of the bridge, it makes for some unorthodox compensation at the nut. I tried setting it up like a normal guitar and was perplexed why correct nut heingt was so awful. Since the bridge makes the strings buzz, the clearence needs to be good to avoid any additional fret buzz, and with the string egtting shorter up the neck, it makes the strings sharper, so you basically make all the notes match in sharpness/brightness the tilt the whole bridge for intonation.

[almightycrunch]

 

No, unless you make the action too high at the nut. A string vibrates in an elliptical pattern, so you need more clearance at the 12th fret than you do on the first fret. An absolutely perfectly straight neck and absolutely perfectly leveled frets still would not have the same clearance on the 1st and 12th frets in a perfect setup.

 

 

+1, a nice explanation, in easy to understand laymans terms.

[tribalfusion]

 

+1, a nice explanation, in easy to understand laymans terms.

 

 

Just not accurate however. Allan Holdsworth has been doing what the OP asked for years as you can see from his quote in the early 90s.

 

It wouldn't work for some playing styles but for a legato light-touch style it is ideal.

[almightycrunch]

so, sounds like it wouldnt work for MOST playing styles period then, what good is that?

 

I could probably string my guitar with dental floss and play it too, but Im thinking alternate picking would be a bitch.

[Space coyote]

I try not to get too hung up on actual measurements, feel and intonation are more important, that and string buzz, however...whenever I do my initial set-ups i use as a guide a nickel height for the LOW E string at the 24th fret(or 22nd) and a penny height for the HIGH E at the 24th fret, then work from there.

[scolfax]

Brawer says that's the way Satriani likes his JS guitars setup - equal and low action across the neck.

[tribalfusion]

 

so, sounds like it wouldnt work for MOST playing styles period then, what good is that? I could probably string my guitar with dental floss and play it too, but Im thinking alternate picking would be a bitch.

 

 

Because not everyone plays the same way obviously. I have John Suhr and Joe Glaser do mine this way as well.