Sort of OT: Which tweed Fender amp to build?

[deadllama]

I'm looking at building a Weber amp kit for recording and for smaller gigs. My Hot Rod DeVille 4x10 is just too damn loud and too clean for those scenarios. The tweed stuff has the tones I'm looking for, and I'm a bit of an electronics hobbyist, so I'm going to build one.

 

I have two questions:

 

(1) What're the tonal differences between the Champ (5F1) and the Deluxe (5E3)? I'm worried about the Champ not having enough bottom end for my tastes, but that's mostly based on YouTube videos

 

(2) Which ones have mellower, fuller-sounding overdrive, the 12AX7 versions (5F1/5E3) or the older octal-preamp versions? (5C1/5C3) Does anyone here have experience with both?

 

(Third bonus question: why should I build a tweed Champ over a tweed Princeton?)

 

Thanks in advance.

[Wyatt]

It's hard to compare the 5F1 in terms of bottom end because the smaller cabinet, smaller iron and smaller speaker all work against low end. But I think that's your answer right there. But, miked, it sits in a mix pretty well. All those old James Gang tones were mostly recorded with one.

 

The octal Tweeds are fuller sounding...that's the advantage of octal tubes, they have better and more even range compared to the miniature 12A*7 series (audiophiles hate 12A*7's). But they lack gain...which hurts both ends of the spectrum...you have less preamp headroom for clean tones and less overdrive on tap. Think of the octal versions as fuller sounding, but lower output and both less clean and less aggressive, they are great for that blues/blues-rock just breaking up "sweet spot" tones.

 

Neither the Tweed Champ nor the Tweed Deluxe are quiet enough to use at home without disturbing others. So, it's hard to recommend one or the other. The 5E3 is the most versatile of the bunch you listed and it's a common platform for mods if you find it too loose and unfocused.

[cratz2]

I have a 5E3 clone and a 5F1 clone built into a 1x12 enclosure.

 

For versatility, I thin the 5E3 is DEFINITELY the better choice. I don't mind using a low gain pedal like a Barber LTD for a bit of grit so I'd almost rather have something with even a little more juice or headroom than the 5E3. Forum member Lowbrow has a 5E7 (Tweed Bandmaster) clone and it has too much headroom for my tastes though I might dig it more into a single 12" vs three 10" speakers.

 

These all have similar tonalities and you can tell they are from the same family, but they have pretty different purposes. The 5F1 is pretty quiet overall. Even with the 12", I feel comfortable running it full up in my 10x12 music room. The 5E3, depending on what you run into it can be run almost full up without being stupid loud. I usually play a neck single coil into the Bright channel (no jumpers) with both volumes at 7 and the tone around 5 or 6. This isn't crazy loud. You can barely talk over it. If you jumper the channels, they become more interactive and of course, you get more grit. A humbucker into such a jumpered setup with the voumes at 6 or 7 has as much drive as I'd ever really want and it's not crazy loud. PLUS, you can turn the volumes down and roll the volume and/or tone on the guitar back a bit and get great subdued jazzy tones down to surprisingly low volume levels and it can still sound full and balanced. With the 5F1, when you go for those very low volume (someone sleeping in the next room) levels, it doesn't sound rewarding at all. On the other hand, you won't get into the characteristic Tweed crunch with someone sleeping in the next room with the 5E3 either.

 

 

Depending on the kind of music you play, the 5E3 might be a gigable amp without going through a PA. The Champ definitely will not unless you're playing quietly for 12 people in a coffee house and even then, you'd be getting into maybe more crunch than you might want. The 5F7 is loud enough that lowbrow has ordered an attenuator and that's even to be used at gigs.

 

I've also thought about building up a Super 5E3... bigger iron and 6L6s that aren't quite driven to full 6L6 capability, but I'd be afraid it would take on more of the Bandmaster vibe. I have to say I think my 5E3 is my favorite amp I've ever owned, but I wish it had just a little bit more headroom. Basically like a Tweed version of an AC15, volume-wise. The 5E3 does have it's sweet spot(s), but it sounds great and warm/clean at lower levels.

 

Basically, if you want all out full up crunch, consider the 5F1. If you want a deceptively versatile amp that can cover a lot of ground and is pretty lightweight, go for the 5E3.

 

I know all of that was sort of rambling, but I was just throwing my thoughts out there.

[deadllama]

It sounds like the Deluxe is more what I'm looking for, then, because I'm not so much looking for blown-out crunch sound (except for the occasional Neil Young rampage ) as I am a smooth edge-of-breakup sound with a little bit of balls. I mostly play P90's and Strats, with the occasional humbucker, but I'm very into warm, mellow tones (as opposed to bright blackface-y tones).

 

Depending on the kind of music you play, the 5E3 might be a gigable amp without going through a PA. The Champ definitely will not unless you're playing quietly for 12 people in a coffee house and even then, you'd be getting into maybe more crunch than you might want. The 5F7 is loud enough that lowbrow has ordered an attenuator and that's even to be used at gigs.

 

The 5F7 is the Pete Townshend 3x10 Bandmaster, right?

 

 

Basically, if you want all out full up crunch, consider the 5F1. If you want a deceptively versatile amp that can cover a lot of ground and is pretty lightweight, go for the 5E3.

 

So it sounds like the 5E3 is sort of the ideal for what I'm wanting to do with it. Am I correct in saying that the 5C3 has less headroom, but better breakup, and that the Champ is more sort of "all-or-nothing" in terms of its strengths? (That is, it's either kinda weak and quiet or it's blowing up crunchy?)

[Wyatt]

5C3 will be darker (the 5E3 is already a dark sounding amp), less volume, less gain tap, a little less tight, but...tonally, fatter. It's a "browner" more lo-fi, blues tone. ANd I think it lacks the versatility of the 5E3. And a 5E3 can best deliver the Neil Young tones.

[cratz2]

 

So it sounds like the 5E3 is sort of the ideal for what I'm wanting to do with it. Am I correct in saying that the 5C3 has less headroom, but better breakup, and that the Champ is more sort of "all-or-nothing" in terms of its strengths? (That is, it's either kinda weak and quiet or it's blowing up crunchy?)

 

 

No, I'd say the 5E3 has more of everything except the ability to play maxed out crunch at more tolerable volume levels. THe 5E3 has more headroom AND more volume capability, esp the ability to have some decent volume while staying clean.

 

It's harder to quantify, but I've always preferred amps with multiple power tubes. I've never heard a single power tubed-amp at any price point that had the complexity of decent amp with two power tubes. Of course, most amps with a single power tube are all about getting that power tube saturation at lower levels and that's NOT what I'm about. I mostly like to get amps to just about a little bit of breakup... where you can easily control the amount of audible grit with your playing attack. The 5F1 is simply not loud enough for me. The 5E3 is barely loud enough for me as when I get it to the point I like it, it's certainly not loud enough for most gigs.

[cratz2]

I'm not sure he intentionally used the '5C3'.

 

I think he still was comparing the 5E3 to the 5F1.

 

I've never used a 5C3, just the 5E3 and the 6G3 for pre-Blackface Deluxes for me.

[northpark]

I'm not sure how loud the 5e3s running 6l6's are

 

 

My 5e3 running jj6v6s tubes has loads of dark raunchy rocknroll/bluesy overdrive, one of these days I'll get around to the 'humbucker mod'. The clean is awesome too

 

I can't seem to get any decent overdrive out of my champs (i haven't tried an external speaker either) but it has more of a broken amp sound

 

That weber princeton kit is much more complex than a tweed amp, I wouldn't go near one if its your first build

[Wyatt]

 

I'm not sure how loud the 5e3s running 6l6's are My 5e3 running jj6v6s tubes has loads of dark raunchy rocknroll/bluesy overdrive, one of these days I'll get around to the 'humbucker mod'. The clean is awesome too I can't seem to get any decent overdrive out of my champs (i haven't tried an external speaker either) but it has more of a broken amp sound That weber princeton kit is much more complex than a tweed amp , I wouldn't go near one if its your first build

 

 

Weber offers a Tweed Princeton kit (think Tweed Champ with a larger speaker and a Tone control) as well as the normal and high-powered Princeton Reverb kit.

[cratz2]

I'm not sure how loud the 5e3s running 6l6's are

 

I haven't tried it in mine and I'm not going to. I've heard from a couple folks that if you have a straight un-modded 5E3 and you pop in a pair of current 6L6GCs, it will likely blow the transformer and probably won't sound as much louder as you'd expect than the 6V6s. Upgrade the transformers and mod the circuit to be able to use 6V6s or 6L6s and it still won't get radically louder, but you'll probably lose the power tube crunch when running 6L6s because the tube itself can put out so much more. There are a couple makers that allow you to use 6V6s properly or 6L6s properly so I'd imagine with the right transformers and maybe having part of the circuit switchable... you could probably get into what I'd like... the ability to get crunchy with the 6V6s or the ability to stay cleaner louder and longer withi the 6L6s, but it's not worth all that for me. If I were getting into something that complicated, I'd probably ante up for an boutique amp that has a good Tweed tone and a good Blackface tone in the same package.

 

[Wyatt]

Weber's PT's can handle the current draw of a 6L6GC, as can a Mercury Magnetic. Most modern transformers can, you just have to get the specs and do the math on available current.

 

To use a stock 5E3 cathode-bias resistor with 6L6GC's, you have to increase the plate voltages, so you can easily use a 5Y3 rectifier (NOS only...never use a modern 5Y3 in a 5E3) for 6V6GT's and 5AR4/GZ34 rectifier for an additional 25-40 volts DC to get the 6L6GC's to bias right.

 

The smallish 5E3 output transformer is a bottleneck. It's designed for 15 watts RMS and tube amps are rather responsive...if the OT can only handle 15 watts, then the output tubes won't work as hard (unless pushed with excessive voltage) and only deliver 15 watts.

 

Plus, remember that the speaker impedance drops to 4 ohms with 6L6GC's...trying to push a 8-ohm speaker negates any extra wattage from the larger tubes.

[DeathRowJethro]

Weber kit is a waste of money. SO many components need to be dumped you might as well buy a kit from Mission or source your own parts.

[northpark]

These are the tubes I'm talking about for the 5e3 http://thetubestore.com/tesla6v6s.html

 

I've built their 6s100/6o100/6m18/java kits. They're decent and I haven't came across anything that's necessary to replace, although I really dislike their wire and led lamp

[northpark]

Weber kit is a waste of money. SO many components need to be dumped you might as well buy a kit from Mission or source your own parts.

 

You're repeating things you've read on hc right

 

this is coming from a mission/weber/ceriatone/metro owner

[cratz2]

The JJ 6V6s are OK... in a pinch or as a backup, but the Tung Sols are about 10 times better and just a couple bucks more. Having tried four kinds of modern production 6V6s, I have to say the Tung Sols are the best out there. I've only tried NOS 6V6s in my 5F1 since it only requires one of them, but I'd have to think the Tung Sols are at or near the top for new production though I'm sure plenty of NOS 6V6s are great as well.

 

My advice would be to get a NOS 5Y3 because they are cheap anyway, the new Tung Sols 6V6s and a new Tung 12AX7 and a couple $10 - $20 NOS 12AX7s and AY7s and play around with those. They are cheap and they don't go bad. Definitely don't just cram two 12AX7s in there... the AX7s and AY7s sound pretty difference.

[deadllama]

5C3 will be darker (the 5E3 is already a dark sounding amp), less volume, less gain tap, a little less tight, but...tonally, fatter. It's a "browner" more lo-fi, blues tone. ANd I think it lacks the versatility of the 5E3. And a 5E3 can best deliver the Neil Young tones.

 

I'm not so much worried about exactly hitting Neil Young tones, but I do like them when I'm in the mood. Versatility on top of that dark, mellowed, breaking-up sound is what I'm after. Sounds like the 5E3 is more what I want over the octal stuff. I don't want it to be too dark, and it sounds like maybe the 5C3 is (found some YouTube videos with better sound quality that sort of confirm that suspicion).

 

In terms of kit builds, how much harder is the 5E3 than something like the 5F1? Significantly more complicated? I'm pretty good at lead dressing and such; my pedals I've built for myself have had fairly good-looking innards. Everyone seems to recommend starting with the 5F1 if it's your first build, but if it's not that much more complicated, I'd rather not spend the $400 on an amp that isn't really the one I want.

 

Thanks for all this feedback, though. Really, really helpful.

[northpark]

the 5e3 just has twice the parts but a lot of people start out assembling one as their first amp, mine came out just fine as my first kit assembly

 

also the wattage differences between the tweed circuits doesn't really make much of a difference in difficulty - referring to the various power tube options that weber has for their fender amps

[Alex_SF]

You could also try a Gibsonette GA-8 build, which is pretty damn near to a tweed Princeton, only with parallel output tubes for a bit more power. No kits available for that specific design that I know of, but Dave Hunter's "two-stroke" is a very similar circuit, and I think you can get kits for it and mod to Gibsonette-spec.

[gt5litre]

I'd go with a Deluxe clone and make sure your Trannies are from David Allen, Heyboer (often used by Allen) or the chicago iron sokd by Triode Electronics. TTo my humble years they are better then the Mercury units and you can get the specs they use to construct them. No secret formulas or fake mystery involved.

 

I also like the 12" Red Fang speaker for the best tone from this amp. I also had my cab constructed a little deeper for a less boxy sound and less flabby bass; see if your cab builder can do this for you.

 

gt5litre

[cratz2]

I always thought the flabby bass was mostly a product of the circuit more than the cab design and it's never really sounded very boxy to me. It's funny... it's about the same size as the Blues Jr, but it sounds so much bigger. It doesn't really sound like a small amp. It's sounds like a fairly low-powered amp, but it doesn't sound small.

 

But yeah... speakers make a big difference with any amp, but definitely with this one. I've settled on an Alnico Silver Bell. Seems to have the best balance of everything. It's bright-ish for a dark-ish amp, it crunches up more nicely than a Greenback and it's not quite as chimey as a Celestion Blue. I also really liked a ceramic Weber Blue Dog in it... I think I actually liked it more than the Celestion Blue for the 5E3, but the Celestion definitely wins out in the AC15.

 

Probably my second choice would be the EVM 12L, but it's just so damn heavy... hell, it weighs almost as much as the 5E3 does without a speaker installed. Definitely no speaker breakup with that one, but I like it's balanced tonality.

 

The traditional choices like the various Jensen 12Ns and the Weber clones... all good stuff, but I think the Silver Bell is staying in mine from here on out.

[SirJackdeFuzz]

To the OP :

 

 

. . . you want to build a 5F4 circuit !!!

 

http://victoriaamp.com/amps.html?model=35210

 

 

Just listen to that mojo on the "LP Dirty" clip - W O W !

[Prages]

Weber kit is a waste of money. SO many components need to be dumped you might as well buy a kit from Mission or source your own parts.

 

The only parts of my Weber 5E7M kit that I replaced were the volume pots and tubes. The volume pots worked fine, but I didn't like the sweep. The tubes also worked fine, but the power tubes weren't matched and I wasn't crazy about the 12AX7s in the preamp, so I went with lower gain preamp tubes.

 

All the caps, resistors, and transformers are fine, and the chassis is really nice. The finished product looks and sounds great.

 

Free For All

 

Rockin' Is Ma Business

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

I'm looking at building a Weber amp kit for recording and for smaller gigs. My Hot Rod DeVille 4x10 is just too damn loud and too clean for those scenarios. The tweed stuff has the tones I'm looking for, and I'm a bit of an electronics hobbyist, so I'm going to build one. I have two questions: (1) What're the tonal differences between the Champ (5F1) and the Deluxe (5E3)? I'm worried about the Champ not having enough bottom end for my tastes, but that's mostly based on YouTube videos (2) Which ones have mellower, fuller-sounding overdrive, the 12AX7 versions (5F1/5E3) or the older octal-preamp versions? (5C1/5C3) Does anyone here have experience with both? (Third bonus question: why should I build a tweed Champ over a tweed Princeton?) Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

Some decent clips :

 

http://victoriaamp.com/amps.html?model=5112 - 5F1 with 12" driver

 

http://victoriaamp.com/amps.html?model=20112 - 5E3 w12" driver

 

 

 

You say yout Hot Rod is too clean ??? What happened to your gain knob ???

[deadllama]

You say yout Hot Rod is too clean ??? What happened to your gain knob ???

 

The drive channels on the Hot Rod sound like compressed, boxed-in, solid state ass. I only ever use the clean channel, but to get it to break up, it generally has to be way too loud for a recording scenario. It sounds good, but it's waaaaaaay too loud.

 

The Hot Rod works great for live situations, especially because I usually goose the preamp section with an LPB-1 booster, and when I need a little bit of crunch there's always my trusty Tube Screamer. It muddies things up a little more than I'd like sometimes, and it's not very touch-sensitive, but nobody's paying attention to that stuff in a live setting.

 

Plus I just love that dark tweed Fender howl, and the tweeds are easier to build than the blackfaces

 

EDIT: Another thought that I just had: how would building a 5E3 in a TV-front cabinet affect the tone? Would that tighten it up a little bit? I ask because they look really cool

[Wyatt]

EDIT: Another thought that I just had: how would building a 5E3 in a TV-front cabinet affect the tone? Would that tighten it up a little bit? I ask because they look really cool

 

Weber TV Front cabs are purely an aesthetic choice. IIRC they are the same dimensions as their narrow panel cabs, just with the different front. In vintage amps the TV cabs are smaller.