Noob-ish amp questions. A few things I'm curious about.

[ChineseKnockoff]

Sorry to ask such elementary questions, but I'm sure that more than one person here could answer these with ease.

 

So, lately the market has been flooded w/ low-wattage tube amps, and by my estimation 80% or more of the new models use EL84 or similar power tubes. Another 10 -15 percent use 6L6s. Why no love for the 6x6s, and especially none for the 6V6? Doesn't seem to be a cost thing, or at least not the cost of the tubes. Are the transformers and supporting circuitry for EL84 based circuits that much easier or cheaper to build? Are ELxx tubes that much more available? Or as an outside possibility maybe I just have a tin ear and I'm the last person on earth who hasn't noticed that 6V6 amps sound like ca-ca?

 

Also - some terminology I need clarified. 1) Does the term "hand wired" mean that an amp was literally built by a person at a bench w/ a soldering iron and wire cutters, making each connection manually, rather than the chassis having been made on a robotic assembly line? Or does it only signify that the chassis isn't built around a PCB? And 2) What does "point to point" mean? What would an amp be called if it wasn't p2p? Would it use omnibus connections instead?

 

Thanks for anything you can tell me!

[plasticscouse]

I#m certainly no expert at all, (as in someone says different trust them) but I belive point to point is the not on a PCB.

[Prages]

Don't know about the tube choices.

 

Hand wired should mean just that, but I have a feeling a lot of manufacturers substitute that for any non-pcb amp.

 

Point to point should mean non-pcb.

[PsychWarfare]

Speaking of love for the 6v6...

 

Traynor has an amp...The Darkhorse...that pumps out some nice tones through a 6v6 section...

[kayd_mon]

 

Sorry to ask such elementary questions, but I'm sure that more than one person here could answer these with ease. So, lately the market has been flooded w/ low-wattage tube amps, and by my estimation 80% or more of the new models use EL84 or similar power tubes. Another 10 -15 percent use 6L6s. Why no love for the 6x6s, and especially none for the 6V6? Doesn't seem to be a cost thing, or at least not the cost of the tubes. Are the transformers and supporting circuitry for EL84 based circuits that much easier or cheaper to build? Are ELxx tubes that much more available? Or as an outside possibility maybe I just have a tin ear and I'm the last person on earth who hasn't noticed that 6V6 amps sound like ca-ca? Also - some terminology I need clarified. 1) Does the term "hand wired" mean that an amp was literally built by a person at a bench w/ a soldering iron and wire cutters, making each connection manually, rather than the chassis having been made on a robotic assembly line? Or does it only signify that the chassis isn't built around a PCB? And 2) What does "point to point" mean? What would an amp be called if it wasn't p2p? Would it use omnibus connections instead? Thanks for anything you can tell me!

 

 

Pure marketing reasons for not using the other tubes. I guess all the famous vintage amps that create buzz these days use those tubes. Whatever. I use Vox amps with EL84s, and I'm happy.

 

I always took "hand-wired" to mean just that, but all a PCB does is keep things organized, right? I don't see how it would make any real difference in tone.

[Prages]

 

I always took "hand-wired" to mean just that, but all a PCB does is keep things organized, right? I don't see how it would make any real difference in tone.

 

 

Some amp builders believe that having the wiring on different planes enhances the tone of the circuit. With a pcb, everything is on the same plane. Whether there's any truth to that at all, I don't know.

 

Now, as far as repair and mods, give me a point to point over a pcb any day.

[Preacher]

 

Now, as far as repair and mods, give me a point to point over a pcb any day.

 

 

+100

[ChineseKnockoff]

 

Speaking of love for the 6v6... Traynor has an amp...The Darkhorse...that pumps out some nice tones through a 6v6 section...

 

 

Thanks a lot there pal! Screw you and the (dark) horse you rode in on! Ya just had to go and bring that GAS-inducing beast into the conversation.

 

I was poking around online for a 6V6 lunchbox a few weeks ago, and I found that thing. Gave me serious wood from the second I saw it. Unfortunately I'm one of those people who likes to play with things before I buy them and there just isn't one to be found anywhere around me. I have no idea how it sounds, although from the specs it looks like something I'd like, but damn! It gets the top score for looks. I hope I get to Canada some time soon, 'cause I want one!

 

(And yeah, Let's go Flyers!!)

[ChineseKnockoff]

 

Some amp builders believe that having the wiring on different planes enhances the tone of the circuit. With a pcb, everything is on the same plane. Whether there's any truth to that at all, I don't know. Now, as far as repair and mods, give me a point to point over a pcb any day.

 

 

I've heard that too. Supposedly, each component can generate it's own electromagnetic field while the amp is running and these fields can influence the operation of other nearby components, resulting in unpredictable changes in performance values of the parts along the signal path.

 

I've never dug in deep enough to know if this idea has any merit, b ut I can see how it could be true.

[PsychWarfare]

 

Thanks a lot there pal! Screw you and the (dark) horse you rode in on! Ya just had to go and bring that GAS-inducing beast into the conversation. It gets the top score for looks. I hope I get to Canada some time soon, 'cause I want one!

 

 

Hell...if you wait long enough I'm going to be tempted into buying one without a demo...being the nice guy that I am I will gladly sing its praises for you...

[metallica_00]

Nothing wrong with 6V6...plenty of excellent amps run on them, if the Deluxe Reverb, tweed deluxe, and Princeton reverb (to name a few) ring a bell

 

My guess would be that more designers are gunning for a Brit tone rather than an American tone with these amps, so they're opting for EL84s

 

I believe hardwired should be non-PCB. I have heard some builders differentiate between handwiring and true point to point wiring. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for example a turret board hardwired but not necessarily PTP, while PTP actually involves directly connecting all components.

 

I'm not a big believer in that stuff (other than the fact the PCB is generally tougher to repair/mod). A well designed PCB amp with good components will sound good, a {censored}ty hardwired amp won't. Plenty of excellent high end amps using PCB...Mesa, Fuchs, to name a couple.

[stevics]

Also - some terminology I need clarified. 1) Does the term "hand wired" mean that an amp was literally built by a person at a bench w/ a soldering iron and wire cutters, making each connection manually, rather than the chassis having been made on a robotic assembly line? Or does it only signify that the chassis isn't built around a PCB? And 2) What does "point to point" mean? What would an amp be called if it wasn't p2p? Would it use omnibus connections instead? Thanks for anything you can tell me!

 

Hand wired often confused with hard wired

All three below may be hand wired.

 

Point to point wiring (true hard wired)

Hand soldered (impossible to automate manufacturing)

 

Turret Board

Also hand wired for same reasons as above.

 

PCB

Cetain phases of manufacture may be automated.

[cratz2]

Yeah, there are recent 6V6 amps. Not many low-powered 6L6 amps because they wouldn't be low powered.

 

 

But most low powered amps seem to be oriented around being able to fully crank them up for power tube saturation and, though I think I prefer 6V6s myself, EL84s seem to be more conducive to that sort of tone. On the other hand, proper amps with 2 6V6s seem to have more headroom than amps with 2 EL84s. Preamp and input section is a huge difference but for example, a DRRI vs an AC15... A DRRI keeps a pretty clean tone up to a pretty loud volume. To keep an AC15 similarly clean, you'll definitely need to be working the controls on the guitar.

 

As far as hand-wired vs point to point... I think the term 'hand-wired' is pretty loosely used these days. My 1982 Twin II is all point to point (one of the last non-Custom Shop Fenders to be fully point to point) and my recent AC15H1TV is touted as being 'hand-wired, but it's largely PCB. I love both of them, but I'd sure hate to try to replace most components on the AC15 and I have no doubt the Twin II could suffer much harsher conditions and more abuse than the AC.

 

[cratz2]

This is my 'hand-wired' AC15:

 

 

And this is my (not very neatly) point to point Twin II:

 

[Beckman]

And this is my (not very neatly) point to point Twin II:

 

Wow! Is the tone in the Mayhem?

[Steadfastly]

 

Thanks a lot there pal! Screw you and the (dark) horse you rode in on! Ya just had to go and bring that GAS-inducing beast into the conversation. I was poking around online for a 6V6 lunchbox a few weeks ago, and I found that thing. Gave me serious wood from the second I saw it. Unfortunately I'm one of those people who likes to play with things before I buy them and there just isn't one to be found anywhere around me. I have no idea how it sounds, although from the specs it looks like something I'd like, but damn! It gets the top score for looks. I hope I get to Canada some time soon, 'cause I want one! (And yeah, Let's go Flyers!!)

 

 

Musician's Friend sells Traynor amps as well as a number of USA dealers. Price wise, though, you might do better to order one from a Canadian retailer if the shipping doesn't kill you.

[Wyatt]

EL84's use the same miniature noval (9-pin) socket as the preamp tubes. They only have to source one socket for the amp. They also use less chassis space and the same size punch.

 

Also, EL84's have pretty much always been available in a (relatively speaking) quality version. During the late '80's and early '90's there was no one making 6V6GT's. After that for nearly a decade the only source was the crappy Sovtek tube. Fender used it is the DRRI when they introduced it in the mid '90's (and still do), but no other manufacturer would touch them. When the 6V6Eh came out in the early '00's then people started getting back into 6V6 designs...and with the superior Tung Sol and JJ tubes, it's popularity has grown again. The 6V6GT is closest to a low wattage EL34 than anything else.

 

"Hand-wired" is a marketing term that can be twisted...a lot of hand-wired Asian amps use PCBs and hand-wire the "flying leads" that run between the PCB and chassis-mounted pots, switches and tube sockets and (most modern production amps use PCB-mounted pots and tube sockets).

 

Most boutique manufacturers use the term point-to-point...but tht can really mean turret-board construction (like vintage Marshalls and Voxes), eyelet-board construction (like vintage Fenders and Gibsons) or real point to point (like vintage Supros or modern Matchless)

[flummox]

EL84's use the same miniature noval (9-pin) socket as the preamp tubes. They only have to source one socket for the amp. They also use less chassis space. During the late '80's and early '90's there was no one making 6V6GT's. After that for nearly a decade the only source was the crappy Sovtek tube. Fender used it is the DRRI when they introduced it in the mid '90's (and still do), but no other manufacturer would touch them. When the 6V6Eh came out in the early '00's then people started getting back into 6V6 designs...and with the superior Tung Sol and JJ tubes, it's popularity has grown again. The 6V6GT is closest to a low wattage EL34 than anything else. "Hand-wired" is a marketing term that can be twisted...a lot of hand-wired Asian amps use PCBs and hand-wire the "flying leads" that run between the PCB and chassis-mounted pots, switches and tube sockets and (most modern production amps use PCB-mounted pots and tube sockets). Most boutique manufacturers use the term point-to-point...but tht can really mean turret-board construction (like vintage Marshalls and Voxes), eyelet-board construction (like vintage Fenders and Gibsons) or real point to point (like vintage Supros or modern Matchless)

To expand on this a bit, a well-designed PCB-based amp should have the components mounted on the board and the tube sockets, pots, transformers and jacks connected by flying leads. That makes a good reliable amp that's easy to service, because the wear parts are easy to replace, and the tubes aren't heat-cycling the {censored} out of the PCB every time it's powered on.

 

This is a mid-80s Laney Pro-Tube; a well-done, very good sounding PCB amp.

[DaleH]

I have always thought EL84 break up earlier. Most EL84 amp I have tried don't seem to have much clean headroom. They all have that rassy sound.

Maybe the builders just run them hotter.