Members roomjello Posted May 4, 2011 Members Share Posted May 4, 2011 Something that i have found important, very very important in recording is, as you may have found yourselves, the source sound.Obviously the most fundamental and important part of the chain.But even more importantly is how the said new sound mixes with the other instruments being tracked or already tracked sounds. In order to kick off the discussion, i will take the easy first section and outline some others that i find helpful in achieving this important first task in the recording process. That being getting down a nice blend of instruments over the entire frequency spectrum and allowing each sound it's own space to live and breathe in so it all works together pre mixing.Jump in and fill in some blanks or whole sections or add to mine or anyone elses, but keep the package together like and article so it's easy to see the final accumulation at the end: Section 1-Check the instrument thoroughly for noise and peak performance. -Amps(rattly tubes, speakers, loose handles etc). -Drums (loose nuts on cymbals or drum heads, especially check the kick as the head is often very loose, pedal squeaks, new heads of course tuned well, a poorly tuned head will make noise) -Bass/guitars/mandolins etc- Listen to the player with out his/her amp, if he is making lots of fret buzz alert him/her to the fact that it goes away if he/she places his/her fingers closer to the upper fret. Also watch for the aggressive players bashing their plucking hand too hard and making the string contact the PU making a pop. New strings stretched of course) -Vocalist(ask them to do some exercise before coming in, preferably cardio. If that is a bust just a good walk helps, some fresh air. Find out which side of their mouth they favor(do the pirate ahhhrrr) and also ask them to fake some mic technique to find out which way they turn away from the mike on loud sounds.) -Keys(make sure you track midi as well as analog wave from the source. Make sure the analog out is dealt with properly-ie a DI box if required) - Section 2-Mike placement-Choose the mike you think will work best and apply it to the source - Section 3- Preamp choice-Choose the preamp that best suits the chain to that point and set the gain according to the preamp's best 'zone' - Section 4/5-Equalization-Maybe set this part of the chain up but leave it OFF until the very very last. It is important to use the other elements of the chain FIRST for equalization. -Experienced techs only please, if you are not positive of what to do, just leave it. - Section 5/4- Compression-See notes on equalization- If you know what you are doing very very mucho.....Mult signals that you intend to smash the crap out of and use in parallel here and send them to a separate chain of eq and compression for destruction.Experience has shown me that it is more constructive to do this though during mixing, very late in the game actually, so it can be heard against the final mixed snare/bass/vox etc for example, then as you smash you eq and you blend it in with the perfect release time and highs and lows to fill the exact void you want it to. - Section 6- Conversion -Don't overlook the details here. Sample at at least 48k -Set your peaks pre-performance(soundcheck) at .... -16 dbfs!!!This is because when the band or performer fires up for real they will increase in volume by at least 6 db. You want your peaks ultimately down around -10dbfs. -DON"T USE SOFT SAT-yuck - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted May 4, 2011 Members Share Posted May 4, 2011 Arrangement. Consider it "pre-mixing". Get this right and the song practically mixes itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members roomjello Posted May 4, 2011 Author Members Share Posted May 4, 2011 Section 1-Check the instrument thoroughly for noise and peak performance. -Amps(rattly tubes, speakers, loose handles etc). -Drums (loose nuts on cymbals or drum heads, especially check the kick as the head is often very loose, pedal squeaks, new heads of course tuned well, a poorly tuned head will make noise)-Bass/guitars/mandolins etc- Listen to the player with out his/her amp, if he is making lots of fret buzz alert him/her to the fact that it goes away if he/she places his/her fingers closer to the upper fret. Also watch for the aggressive players bashing their plucking hand too hard and making the string contact the PU making a pop. New strings stretched of course)-Vocalist(ask them to do some exercise before coming in, preferably cardio. If that is a bust just a good walk helps, some fresh air. Find out which side of their mouth they favor(do the pirate ahhhrrr) and also ask them to fake some mic technique to find out which way they turn away from the mike on loud sounds.)-Keys(make sure you track midi as well as analog wave from the source. Make sure the analog out is dealt with properly-ie a DI box if required)-Section 2-Mike placement-Choose the mike you think will work best and apply it to the source-Section 3- Preamp choice-Choose the preamp that best suits the chain to that point and set the gain according to the preamp's best 'zone'-Section 4/5-Equalization-Maybe set this part of the chain up but leave it OFF until the very very last. It is important to use the other elements of the chain FIRST for equalization.-Experienced techs only please, if you are not positive of what to do, just leave it.-Section 5/4- Compression-See notes on equalization- If you know what you are doing very very mucho.....Mult signals that you intend to smash the crap out of and use in parallel here and send them to a separate chain of eq and compression for destruction.Experience has shown me that it is more constructive to do this though during mixing, very late in the game actually, so it can be heard against the final mixed snare/bass/vox etc for example, then as you smash you eq and you blend it in with the perfect release time and highs and lows to fill the exact void you want it to.-Section 6- Conversion-Don't overlook the details here. Sample at at least 48k-Set your peaks pre-performance(soundcheck) at .... -16 dbfs!!!This is because when the band or performer fires up for real they will increase in volume by at least 6 db. You want your peaks ultimately down around -10dbfs.-DON"T USE SOFT SAT-yuck- Ken/Eleven Shadows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted May 4, 2011 Members Share Posted May 4, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zooey Posted May 4, 2011 Members Share Posted May 4, 2011 I'm a big believer in tracking instruments in context. Anything else is just guessing. It's also pretty damn difficult to do if you're both the engineer and the musician, or if you don't have a control room, or if you don't have an assistant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted May 4, 2011 Members Share Posted May 4, 2011 Ahhh, not that bad. You just have to be twice as good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members roomjello Posted May 5, 2011 Author Members Share Posted May 5, 2011 ********Pre-Recording-Arrangement. Consider it "pre-mixing". Get this right and the song practically mixes itself. Section 1-Check the instrument thoroughly for noise and peak performance. -Amps(rattly tubes, speakers, loose handles etc). -Drums (loose nuts on cymbals or drum heads, especially check the kick as the head is often very loose, pedal squeaks, new heads of course tuned well, a poorly tuned head will make noise) -Bass/guitars/mandolins etc- Listen to the player with out his/her amp, if he is making lots of fret buzz alert him/her to the fact that it goes away if he/she places his/her fingers closer to the upper fret. Also watch for the aggressive players bashing their plucking hand too hard and making the string contact the PU making a pop. New strings stretched of course) -Vocalist(ask them to do some exercise before coming in, preferably cardio. If that is a bust just a good walk helps, some fresh air. Find out which side of their mouth they favor(do the pirate ahhhrrr) and also ask them to fake some mic technique to find out which way they turn away from the mike on loud sounds.) -Keys(make sure you track midi as well as analog wave from the source. Make sure the analog out is dealt with properly-ie a DI box if required) - Section 2-Mike placement-Choose the microphone you think will work best and apply it to the source.-Assuming you are assistant less....Put on very tight cans or better yet good 'plug' type ear buds eg. http://store.shure.com/store/shure/DisplayProductDetailsPage/productID.121026300and turn up the gain on the microphone and move it around in front of the sound source looking for the best spot (this is easier the more you do it). try closer further but also side to side. -Consider the various mic patterns. If your room is pleasant sounding you have more options. Remember figure 8 has the strongest rejection on its side plane of any pattern, this can be used to a great advantage.-Consider less compliant mikes on percussive sounds whose dynamic range will be tamed in the mix anyway, let the mike do it for you. (dynamic-ribbon)-Use 2 microphones on a source to capture more character. The same in different spots or side by side with different mic types. Line up the capsule not the front of the head for proper phase coherence.- - Section 3- Preamp choice-Choose the preamp that best suits the chain to that point and set the gain according to the preamp's best 'zone' -Section 4/5-Equalization-Maybe set this part of the chain up but leave it OFF until the very very last. It is important to use the other elements of the chain FIRST for equalization. -Experienced techs only please, if you are not positive of what to do, just leave it. - Section 5/4- Compression-See notes on equalization- If you know what you are doing very very mucho.....Mult signals that you intend to smash the crap out of and use in parallel here and send them to a separate chain of eq and compression for destruction.Experience has shown me that it is more constructive to do this though during mixing, very late in the game actually, so it can be heard against the final mixed snare/bass/vox etc for example, then as you smash you eq and you blend it in with the perfect release time and highs and lows to fill the exact void you want it to. -Section 6 - Pre-Conversion check-Check all interactive microphones for phase coherence.This is how you do drums:Open up the OH's and monitor in mono in one speaker(pan it L or R)Flip the phase on one of the OH mikes. Is it better or worse? How much better or worse? Choose the best one.The more better or worse the difference is the better off you are.If there is only a slight difference go re position your mics. You can measure an equal distance from the snare drum for each OH mic to be safe, as an option.Mostly you should be concerned with the phase of the snare in the OH mics, get it sounding natural in mono. Once the OH's are right, leave them on and turn on the snare mic. Stay in mono.Turn the snare mic all the way down and bring it up slowly until it starts to be noticeable with the ohs, then stop. Now flip the phase on the snareIs it better or worse? etcIs it fat and dull? Move the mic out from the snare to reduce some proximity and clear it up.Turn off the snare microphone when doneDo the same procedure with all tom microphones against the OH's. For guitars:- set the blend of the mics the way you think they will be used in the mix in your monitors.For eg if you want the bright harsh 57 sound mainly with a bit of fat from the ribbon, listen to it that way and adjust their speaker positions while listening as such.if you want mainly the lush ribbon sound with a hint of condenser, monitor it that way.Check their phase relationship. Section 7- Conversion -Don't overlook the details here. Sample at at least 48k -Set your peaks pre-performance(soundcheck) at .... -16 dbfs!!!This is because when the band or performer fires up for real they will increase in volume by at least 6 db. You want your peaks ultimately down around -10dbfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted May 5, 2011 Members Share Posted May 5, 2011 I do alot of live recording so the luxary of adding one track at a time perfectly balanced isnt easy. You have to balance tracks either live like you would recording a live show, or carefully study the results of each song and make mild changes to amps, mics, gains etc between songs. Even then you have to mix well to get what you want. When I do solo stuff then its a piece of cake dialing up what I want. I play along to the mix before recording and just tweak things for the best balance I can get. The first track will still be the hardest to decide on. If you're playing to canned drums or a drum machine, you can just use that as a quality baseline for all your other instruments. Live drums have to be tweaked for a good spread to tweak your other instruments too. I normally work with the same drummer so I can have mics set for his dynamics and be pretty safe recording blind after hitting the record button. If I had alot of different drummers coming in, it would be a whole different story because they all use different dynamics. I'd have to get a few tracks recorded and judge his style. If his kick was softer for example I'd juice those mics a littel, if he's hard on the snare, I may need to back that mic down a bit. I have mu studio set miced so I dont have to resosition the mics every session, simply pay attention to the meters and I should be in the ball park. Then viewing the tracks to see if the tracks are OK without clipping and having simular DB levels is the most important. DAW meters dont respond very quickly so they can be deceptive and rid transients and look higher than they are, or miss transients and ride low. Viering the track levels after they are recorded is a real key item. After that ist all ears. Sometimes I have tracks that look fine, say on bass, but listening to them you can hear a littel crackle when you punch the strings too hard. Visual meters and waveform views are very useful tools but they dont tell the whole story. Things can dound find through headphones direct monitoring too. You may not hear anything wrong tracking thats very apparent on playback that tells you something wasnt optimal. I have built a habit of doing at least one song in a live session then go back and take a quick listen. Ive had it happen more than once where where I may have left a cord from the patch bay cutting that channel off and not known it till later when I have a dead track and kicked myself in the ass for being so stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted May 5, 2011 Moderators Share Posted May 5, 2011 When I'm recording myself... I like to simulate an ensemble. For instance. I've got a 20' tall front room. If I mike a mandolin with a Blumlien pair, then come back record piano, I might choose the same Blumlien pair to mike the piano. Same room. I won't keep the mikes in the same place, but I will be aware of trying fake that. To create the illusion that the piano and mandolin were tracked at the same time, 2 players, same room. Always listening to the overall blend of instrumentation. That exists currently in reality and the one I'm dreaming up in my imagination that will hopefully soon exist too. It's what I tried to do here. All me, but hopefully sounding like an ensemble. [video=youtube;unYVVt8LPhk] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted May 6, 2011 Members Share Posted May 6, 2011 I always do sound design with instruments in context with an arrangement. Makes all the difference in the world... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members roomjello Posted May 6, 2011 Author Members Share Posted May 6, 2011 Sounds great, nicely done. Great mixing and performing.Hey, to be constructive... one thing i noticed of the overall sonic impression was a lack of contrast in how things were captured. Have you got a ribbon mike?Sounds like an AEA 92 or 84 or Royer 121, Coles 4038 type ribbon would be a sweet addition to your pallet and i bet you would know exactly where to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members roomjello Posted May 6, 2011 Author Members Share Posted May 6, 2011 ********Pre-Recording-Arrangement. Consider it "pre-mixing". Get this right and the song practically mixes itself. Section 1-Check the instrument thoroughly for noise and peak performance. -Amps(rattly tubes, speakers, loose handles etc). -Drums (loose nuts on cymbals or drum heads, especially check the kick as the head is often very loose, pedal squeaks, new heads of course tuned well, a poorly tuned head will make noise) -Bass/guitars/mandolins etc- Listen to the player with out his/her amp, if he is making lots of fret buzz alert him/her to the fact that it goes away if he/she places his/her fingers closer to the upper fret. Also watch for the aggressive players bashing their plucking hand too hard and making the string contact the PU making a pop. New strings stretched of course) -Vocalist(ask them to do some exercise before coming in, preferably cardio. If that is a bust just a good walk helps, some fresh air. Find out which side of their mouth they favor(do the pirate ahhhrrr) and also ask them to fake some mic technique to find out which way they turn away from the mike on loud sounds.) -Keys(make sure you track midi as well as analog wave from the source. Make sure the analog out is dealt with properly-ie a DI box if required)-Keep the midi track along side the wave track in the DAW, link it if possible, so if you do any editing you end up with the same performance in midi as you do in wave.Then if you use parallel sounds or swap out the sound you save time later. - Section 2-Mike choice/placement-Choose the microphone you think will work best and apply it to the source initially.Think opposites, bright, hard sounds, soft non-compliant mics and Vice versa. -Vocals-Try anything on vocals that works, it doesn't have to be a condenser.Often a dynamic or ribbon works best.Avoid wind screens if possible. If your room is suitable try a figure 8 pattern on the vocal mic.Cover the metal music stand with a soft towel or cloth. Guitars- record a DI sound off the guitar as well as the amp/mic sound, treat as you did the midi track on the keys. -Assuming you are assistant less....Put on very tight cans or better yet good 'plug' type ear buds eg. http://store.shure.com/store/shure/D...ctID.121026300and turn up the gain on the microphone and move it around in front of the sound source looking for the best spot (this is easier the more you do it). try closer further but also side to side. -Consider the various mic patterns. If your room is pleasant sounding you have more options. Remember figure 8 has the strongest rejection on its side plane of any pattern, this can be used to a great advantage.-Consider less compliant mikes on percussive sounds whose dynamic range will be tamed in the mix anyway, let the mike do it for you. (dynamic-ribbon)-Use 2 microphones on a source to capture more character. The same in different spots or side by side with different mic types. Line up the capsule not the front of the head for proper phase coherence. - -Section 3- Preamp choice-Choose the preamp that best suits the chain to that point and set the gain according to the preamp's best 'zone'-Use the preamp choice to equalize the sound.You can get many cheap and good buys on ebay on old parted out gear. Grab some old x-former pres, solid state and tube if you can find them.Usually you can get good ones for under $300 a channel. With a bit of wiring up, these are very helpful for tracking.With tubes you can push the pre hard, try it on snare.With X-former you can even out or flatten(warm up) the sound.Strait line type like a Grace etc you get clean pure source, no great for all things. Look for contrast and use the contrasts with the mics. Section 4/5-Equalization-Maybe set this part of the chain up but leave it OFF until the very very last. It is important to use the other elements of the chain FIRST for equalization. -Experienced techs only please, if you are not positive of what to do, just leave it. Section 5/4- Compression-See notes on equalization -Generally use light compression at this stage, low ratios set to only affect the higher peaks- avoid gating at this stage as well as it could destroy the tracks if the setting fails.-If you have plenty of converters handy you can mult the track and compress one version as see fit and record both, then if it works you save time if it doesn't you are in good shape. - If you know what you are doing very very mucho.....Mult signals that you intend to smash the crap out of and use in parallel here and send them to a separate chain of eq and compression for destruction.Experience has shown me that it is more constructive to do this though during mixing, very late in the game actually, so it can be heard against the final mixed snare/bass/vox etc for example, then as you smash you eq and you blend it in with the perfect release time and highs and lows to fill the exact void you want it to. -Section 6 - Pre-Conversion check-Check all interactive microphones for phase coherence.This is how you do drums:Open up the OH's and monitor in mono in one speaker(pan it L or R)Flip the phase on one of the OH mikes.Is it better or worse? How much better or worse?Choose the best one.The more better or worse the difference is the better off you are.If there is only a slight difference go re position your mics.You can measure an equal distance from the snare drum for each OH mic to be safe, as an option.Mostly you should be concerned with the phase of the snare in the OH mics, get it sounding natural in mono. Once the OH's are right, leave them on and turn on the snare mic. Stay in mono.Turn the snare mic all the way down and bring it up slowly until it starts to be noticeable with the ohs, then stop. Now flip the phase on the snareIs it better or worse? etcIs it fat and dull? Move the mic out from the snare to reduce some proximity and clear it up.Turn off the snare microphone when doneDo the same procedure with all tom microphones against the OH's. For guitars:- set the blend of the mics the way you think they will be used in the mix in your monitors.For eg if you want the bright harsh 57 sound mainly with a bit of fat from the ribbon, listen to it that way and adjust their speaker positions while listening as such.if you want mainly the lush ribbon sound with a hint of condenser, monitor it that way.Check their phase relationship. Section 7- Conversion -Don't overlook the details here. Sample at at least 48k -Set your peaks pre-performance(soundcheck) at .... -16 dbfs!!!This is because when the band or performer fires up for real they will increase in volume by at least 6 db. You want your peaks ultimately down around -10dbfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted May 6, 2011 Moderators Share Posted May 6, 2011 Sounds great, nicely done. Great mixing and performing.Hey, to be constructive... one thing i noticed of the overall sonic impression was a lack of contrast in how things were captured. Have you got a ribbon mike?Sounds like an AEA 92 or 84 or Royer 121, Coles 4038 type ribbon would be a sweet addition to your pallet and i bet you would know exactly where to use it. Thanks man. The piano and mandolin were captured with a Fathead pair of cheap ribbons. Vocal RE20. Backups 87. Guitars either a 57 and a Fathead or a 609 and a Fathead. I'd love a better pair of ribbons. Funny enough, I was trying to make it sound like a team of players in one room. Hence the ribbon pair on the mando and piano. But I hear what you're saying. What's a good next step ribbon? minor $ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members roomjello Posted May 6, 2011 Author Members Share Posted May 6, 2011 AEA R84, will change your life. $900. btw i think you did accomplish the team thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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