Members paulojcduarte Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 I was wondering, Edwards gets rave reviews pretty much everywhere, remember a guy here who wrote a review about going to a guitar center and trying out a few high end Gibsons and that his Edwards could compare to 3k Gibbys. So if Edwards are good, just how good are the Navigators? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aclarke Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 If I had to choose between a low end gibson (ie. studio or faded) and an edwards, I'd go with edwards. Better wood, better finish. Components are equal. Finish on the high end edwards are noticeably thinner than on a LP studio. SD vs. Gibson pickups. If I had to choose between a gibson custom shop and a navigator, it's close enough that I'd want to play several of each before deciding. On the spec sheet they're equals. Price is close enough on a lot of models that it's not really a deciding factor. I've A/B'ed several (maybe a dozen), and more often than not the differences you find between them are the same kind of variations you'd expect to find if you compared a few of the same guitar. Weight, a little more high end, a little tighter bottom end, wood figure, and so on. OTOH, if I wanted to do a custom order - maybe a 59 burst style with a single pickup and 24 frets or something: navigator in a heartbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundcreation Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 If I was buying a Les Paul site unseen I would choose navigator over gibson any day of the week. Actually the thought of a gibson wouldn't even enter my mind. ESP's high end reputation is virtually flawless. Gibson's is not. But as aclarke said so well if you could play them and A/B them...then I would choose the one that played and sounded the best regardless of headstock name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chqtarzan Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 So I'm biased that I sold my gibson studio and got an edwards, which my friend borrowed for a month and took to Long & Mcquade and competed with a couple PRS and Gibson. He told me the edwards was as good as the $3000 ones. I didn't AB them so I can't say.But another friend of mine, has sold all his gibsons (and CS) and been addicted to Navigators. He has bought 5 or 6 navigators in the past 2 years, I think. He visits japan often, good for him.My edwards is already too good for me and killed almost all my LP gas (except for other edwards, I think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DavidMgT Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 Edwards are great guitars - not as good as a $3K Gibson (i.e. Historic Les Pauls) but most certainly as good, if not better, than Gibson Standards and Traditionals. I've never played a Navigator, but I imagine that they are excellent. The Japanese company whose guitars I am really wanting to try are Bacchus - they seem to be impeccably made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members paulojcduarte Posted April 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 Edwards are great guitars - not as good as a $3K Gibson (i.e. Historic Les Pauls) but most certainly as good, if not better, than Gibson Standards and Traditionals. I've never played a Navigator, but I imagine that they are excellent. The Japanese company whose guitars I am really wanting to try are Bacchus - they seem to be impeccably made. Yep, was looking at their site, 350 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DavidMgT Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 Yep, was looking at their site, 350 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Spike Li Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 Im a big Edwards and Gibson fan, but when i was in Japan i remember the Navigators being so ridiculously expensive (ie waay more than the Equivalent Gibson) that they didnt even warrant a second look. Sight unseen id go with and Edwards/Navigator over Gibson any day. Id go for an Edwards over a Gibson Studio (depending on the guitars) but not over a Traditional - those traditionals are some of the best ive played - plsu i much prefer Gibson pickups to the Duncan JB... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aclarke Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 Im a big Edwards and Gibson fan, but when i was in Japan i remember the Navigators being so ridiculously expensive (ie waay more than the Equivalent Gibson) that they didnt even warrant a second look. A couple of things to remember:- New ESP stuff tends to get tagged with the catalog price. In my experience, Big Boss will knock about 20% off if you ask. - Navigators aren't competing with gibson's standard line. They are competing with gibson's custom shop, and more importantly with the pricing gibson japan has set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vivid2012 Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 A couple of things to remember:- New ESP stuff tends to get tagged with the catalog price. In my experience, Big Boss will knock about 20% off if you ask. - Navigators aren't competing with gibson's standard line. They are competing with gibson's custom shop, and more importantly with the pricing gibson japan has set. sounds nice tip for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zenbu Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 when it comes to the top end MIJs they all use the best components available, made by extremely competent luthiers and priced accordingly. I`ve had 2 Gibson Standards, had 2 Navigators and 1 ESP custom made 719 model...the 719 deserved to be played by a better player so I sold it for the same money I paid for it used, about $2000,00. I now own one Navigator, from the late `90s...sold the other one and got both for less than $1500.00 each, I kept the older of the two and made money on the other one I sold...got both used. Don`t own the Gibsons anymore...to me the Navigators suited me better, one Gibson had rosewood that was very strange on the fretboard...it always looked and felt dry even after I oiled it, really don`t know what the problem was but it`s the only LP type guitar I`ve owned that was like that, sold it and made money. If I were going to buy a Navigator I`d buy used, I always do now anyways, but used ones are such better bargains...I mean the guy who had the 719 model made paid over $7000.00 for it when he had it built...it came with the original order form so I saw exactly what went into the guitar... I paid $2000.oo for it at a pawn type place and I have to believe he didn`t get more than $1000.00 when he turned it in, if that, because that shop likes to double it`s money so they paid around $1000.00, sold it for $2000.00 and the original owner lost his shirt in the process. There are a lot of extremely high end Japanese builders right now, they all use top of the top materials so it really comes down to feel, sound, neck shape...stuff like that because in terms of parts and craftsmanship they are pretty much as good as it gets. I could buy other high end MIJs but it would be a lateral step and not a step up from what I already have...and I have quite a few Bacchus guitars but all old ones from their early days, don`t get to see much of their new stuff locally, but when I was buying them nobody wanted them...suddenly a few people on line started talking about em and now everybody wants them overseas...10-15 years ago I was getting them at huge discounts because shops had had them for a long time and just wanted to get them out, so I have a dozen of them now with one Momose custom ordered...got it used...Hamiltone clone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Spike Li Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 A couple of things to remember: - New ESP stuff tends to get tagged with the catalog price. In my experience, Big Boss will knock about 20% off if you ask. - Navigators aren't competing with gibson's standard line. They are competing with gibson's custom shop, and more importantly with the pricing gibson japan has set. Thats all good but what i dont get is why they would want to compete with the custom shop? I mean, if i was the kind of person who would drop 10k on a Gibson custom shop model, would i really consider buying a relatively obscure exact copy/replica for around the same price? (if someone could clarify the prices that would be great ) I mean isnt the whole appeal/point of a copy to replicate something desirable but at a lower price point, not a similar one? Maybe thats just me, but i dont get it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zenbu Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 because you don`t understand Japanese pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Spike Li Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 because you don`t understand Japanese pride. this is true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zenbu Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 yeah what I mean is...they make a lot of middle of the road stuff as well but they want to prove, if only to each other, that they can build something as good or better than anybody else. I think they try to appeal to people in every range, the kid buying his first guitar, though these days those guitars are outsourced, the intermediate player and then the professional who can afford to buy any guitar they want but are proud to play a home grown instrument that rivals anything built by anybody anywhere. `course that doesn`t mean the Japanese ONLY buy MIJ...they certainly do love imports too and that doesn`t only apply to guitars...import brand names is HUGE business over here...as is copying them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aclarke Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 [quote=Spike Li;42643970 I mean isnt the whole appeal/point of a copy to replicate something desirable but at a lower price point, not a similar one? Maybe thats just me, but i dont get it I've never thought of navigator as being out to make a simple copy - in the same way that I don't look at a Suhr or Anderson or Kirn etc as being just another fender clone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Spike Li Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 I've never thought of navigator as being out to make a simple copy - in the same way that I don't look at a Suhr or Anderson or Kirn etc as being just another fender clone. Why not? I consider Suhrs and Andersons to be Fender clones and you dont even need to look at their headstocks to tell which is a Fender and which isnt, how are they not copies of Gibsons? To make it clear, i dont care that theyre copies, i just dont see the point in buying a copy unless its better/cheaper/different from the original (with the exception of the japanese pride thing). Im not trying to argue here, just stating my own opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zenbu Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 To make it clear, i dont care that theyre copies, i just dont see the point in buying a copy unless its better... ...and that right there is why I bought my MIJs over the MIAs I saw in the shops at the time I bought em, can`t speak for every MIA ever made `cause I ain`t seen em all yet but I selected mine because they were better finished, felt better, played better and sounded better to me than the Gibsons and F/USAs hanging in the local stores. In terms of looks both US big two make some beauties thats for sure but I don`t buy a guitar for looks. Guitar players are a very sensitive lot when it comes to the instruments they choose and personally it makes no difference to me what anybody plays and don`t engage in which is better that the other, I buy what I like ... simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundcreation Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 Why not? I consider Suhrs and Andersons to be Fender clones and you dont even need to look at their headstocks to tell which is a Fender and which isnt, how are they not copies of Gibsons? To make it clear, i dont care that theyre copies, i just dont see the point in buying a copy unless its better/cheaper/different from the original (with the exception of the japanese pride thing). Im not trying to argue here, just stating my own opinion As Zenbu said though...they usually are better. At any price point Gibson manufactures at I can pretty much guarantee you I could show you a MIJ guitar that is better built over all. that's one reason. But for many people into MIJ...especially me....it's as much what they represent as it is the shape of the guitar. I choose these copies over Gibson and Fender personally because I like the way they conduct business better. With MIJ companies you feel it's about building the best guitar possible and that is what makes the companies successful. With fender and gibson I always feel like it's about marketing and branding first and second is about giving me a great product. I think they'd rather have me buy t shirts and key chains than a guitar. Well...I'm not interested in their "lifestyle". I want quality. Plain and simple. I don't want to buy a guitar from some asshat who can barely break an SG in half in some cornball crappy press conference. Someone who cuts every possible corner he can to save every possible nickle he can. MIJ builders don't do that. And I'll go out of my way to support that kind of business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members _Idioteque_ Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 I'd buy an edwards and stick some work to it, even in comparison to a gibson. Provided a custom gibby even HAS a long neck tenon, it's still too huge a price difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 I like how Edwards still uses Strat headstocks. It's gotta be somehow a loophole, and I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundcreation Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 I like how Edwards still uses Strat headstocks. It's gotta be somehow a loophole, and I like it. The US companies never protected the trademark shapes in Japan so they are fair game. Plus they don't sell them in north america so there isn't much G and F can do about it. MIJ companies that want to break into the US market would have to change headstock shapes. At this point though from what I've seen....none of them really seem to care. I guess business is good enough for them in Japan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Spike Li Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 ...and that right there is why I bought my MIJs over the MIAs I saw in the shops at the time I bought em, can`t speak for every MIA ever made `cause I ain`t seen em all yet but I selected mine because they were better finished, felt better, played better and sounded better to me than the Gibsons and F/USAs hanging in the local stores. In terms of looks both US big two make some beauties thats for sure but I don`t buy a guitar for looks. Guitar players are a very sensitive lot when it comes to the instruments they choose and personally it makes no difference to me what anybody plays and don`t engage in which is better that the other, I buy what I like ... simple as that. Fair enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted April 7, 2011 Moderators Share Posted April 7, 2011 Be aware that there are some pretty medium and low end guitars with the name Bacchus on the headstock, not all that says Bacchus is gold. If you're seeing Bacchus for around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FoonkySteve Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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