Members A. Einstein Posted December 13, 2011 Members Share Posted December 13, 2011 Does the master fader in a virtual mixer change the balance of the individual tracks For example: 1) I make a mix - the master stereo fader is on 0 dB. 2) The when everything is balanced, I decide to take the master fader back by 6 dB. Does that taking back the stereo fader change the loudness relation between the individual tracks? Or asked the other way around, does the exported mix with the stereo fader on 0 dB sound the same as the mix exported with the stereo fader at -6 dB when I make this -6 dB mix 6 dB louder later? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 14, 2011 Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 I love an optimist. I love the cojones it takes to jack around on everyone else's threads and then seemingly expect a real answer to their own question. Take a bow, Angelo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted December 14, 2011 Author Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 I love an optimist. I love the cojones it takes to jack around on everyone else's threads and then seemingly expect a real answer to their own question. Take a bow, Angelo! La vie est dure sans confiture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted December 14, 2011 Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 Does the master fader in a virtual mixer change the balance of the individual tracksFor example:1) I make a mix - the master stereo fader is on 0 dB.2) The when everything is balanced, I decide to take the master fader back by 6 dB.Does that taking back the stereo fader change the loudness relation between the individual tracks?Or asked the other way around, does the exported mix with the stereo fader on 0 dB sound the same as the mix exported with the stereo fader at -6 dB when I make this -6 dB mix 6 dB louder later?Not sure why you're asking something you almost certainly already know, but, hey, I'm game. Assuming everything else is equal and the process is good-- nothing is crashing 0 dB FS, there are no intersample overs, etc -- and there are no inaccuracies introduced by hardware or software error, and there's no processing going on post-ouput fader, reducing the output fader by 6 dB and then later raising the mix file by the same amount should have the same result as leaving the output fader at 0 dB in the first place. Of course, in the real world, not everything is perfect or predictable. But that's why we love hypotheticals, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted December 14, 2011 Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 Does it sound the same? Assuming a modern floating point engine, yes. Is it the same? No. But the difference is so small it would be somewhat like the difference in sound a speaker would have if a fly landed on the cone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted December 14, 2011 CMS Author Share Posted December 14, 2011 Does the master fader in a virtual mixer change the balance of the individual tracksOr asked the other way around, does the exported mix with the stereo fader on 0 dB sound the same as the mix exported with the stereo fader at -6 dB when I make this -6 dB mix 6 dB louder later? If a tree falls in the forest. can you hear it? Your ears hear differently at the two levels. If you were to turn up the listening volume of the -6 dB file and your DAW isn't broken, you will restore the sound to all its former glory. Of course if you're using Pro Tools Version 2, there might be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Extreme Mixing Posted December 14, 2011 Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 I can't understand why anyone would turn music down. Louder is better, right? It should be the same unless you have post fader effects on the master bus. In Pro Tools, master bus inserts are post fader. By pulling the fader you will be changing the threshold of any compression or limiting, and that will change the sound. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Goobers Posted December 14, 2011 Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 What is a sous chef in a soup dumpling shack in Shenzhen doing with such a fine piece of meat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted December 14, 2011 Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 Does the master fader in a virtual mixer change the balance of the individual tracksFor example:1) I make a mix - the master stereo fader is on 0 dB.2) The when everything is balanced, I decide to take the master fader back by 6 dB.Does that taking back the stereo fader change the loudness relation between the individual tracks?Or asked the other way around, does the exported mix with the stereo fader on 0 dB sound the same as the mix exported with the stereo fader at -6 dB when I make this -6 dB mix 6 dB louder later? It could virtually go either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted December 14, 2011 Author Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 What is a sous chef in a soup dumpling shack in Shenzhen doing with such a fine piece of meat? That's the usable part of a tourist we found in the garbage can on the back alley, unfortunately the innards where already removed. No kidney today, no liver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted December 14, 2011 Author Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 Does it sound the same? Assuming a modern floating point engine, yes.Is it the same? No. But the difference is so small it would be somewhat like the difference in sound a speaker would have if a fly landed on the cone. So the loudness relation stays the same? I.e. the string section peaking at -23 dBFS and the drumset with a peak of -4 dbFS sound exactly in the same dynamic relation, no matter how much I pull the master fader down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Goobers Posted December 14, 2011 Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 So the loudness relation stays the same? I.e. the string section peaking at -23 dBFS and the drumset with a peak of -4 dbFS sound exactly in the same dynamic relation, no matter how much I pull the master fader down. Based on Fletcher-Munson, the relationship you hear should shift, outside of any change in the source material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted December 14, 2011 Author Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 And what does Fletcher & Munson say about what I hear when I turn up the amp volume knob +12 dB, after I pulled down the master fader -12 dB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Goobers Posted December 14, 2011 Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 And what does Fletcher & Munson say about what I hear when I turn up the amp volume knob 12 dB, after I pulled down the master fader -12 dB? Nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted December 14, 2011 Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 Does it sound the same? Assuming a modern floating point engine, yes.Is it the same? No. But the difference is so small it would be somewhat like the difference in sound a speaker would have if a fly landed on the cone.I'm assuming you mean the reduction of potential significant wordlength by one bit (6 dB) -- which would be lost. I guess by casting my response in a 'perfect world,' I inadvertently created a hypothetical situation where there could be significant signal in that bottom 6 dB that could be reproduced by some hypothetical mega-super hi-fi repro system... so I guess I will have to stipulate a mea culpa there. But, as you seem to suggest, in practical reality, significant signal below ~ -130 dB would be nonexistent in most any real world scenario, I think, and, additionally, any difference would almost certainly be lost in analog noise from the stages following DAC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted December 14, 2011 Author Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 Nothing. Good news. Top secret, MI-6, James Bong, Edgar Hoover, Sheriff Lobo and so on... http://www.goodnews.ch/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted December 14, 2011 Author Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 I make the practical test now, exporting the mix with: 1) Master fader at 02) Master fader at -63) Master fader at -12 Then play the three mixes back at: 1) 02) +63) +12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 14, 2011 Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 I breathlessly await the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zooey Posted December 14, 2011 Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 But, as you seem to suggest, in practical reality, significant signal below ~ -130 dB would be nonexistent in most any real world scenario, I think, and, additionally, any difference would almost certainly be lost in analog noise from the stages following DAC. That was Nika A's conclusion in audio threads far more epic than any I've seen here. He works at a giant law firm now, BTW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted December 14, 2011 Author Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 I breathlessly await the results. Oh ooo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted December 14, 2011 Author Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 signal below ~ -130 dB would be nonexistent in most any real world scenario okay okay, I render one mix with the master fader at -130 dB, then play it back with the fader at 0 dB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JeffLearman Posted December 14, 2011 Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 The volume relationships will be the same. The quantization noise will be higher in the mixes where you reduced the level. That's assuming you're mixing to fixed-point -- as Craig didn't explain above, if you mix to 32-bit floating point, the differences will be inaudible. If you mix to 24 bits, the additional quantization noise will be below your soundcard's ability to render it. If you mix to 16 bits, the additional quantization noise might be audible to someone with extremely good ears. But you'd need to do a double-blind study to verify that. If you do the -130 dB test, you'll end up with silence (16 bits) or a bit or two of signal (24 bits). It won't sound good! But be sure to play it back with the fader at +130 dB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted December 15, 2011 Members Share Posted December 15, 2011 But be sure to play it back with the fader at +130 dB. Behringer makes the ideal playback system for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted December 15, 2011 Author Members Share Posted December 15, 2011 It won't sound good! But be sure to play it back with the fader at +130 dB. Great. So I still won't hear anything with the fader at +260 dB, but with with Craig's speakers some unheard contemporary earnest music. Thanks, that's all I wanted to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted December 15, 2011 Members Share Posted December 15, 2011 Behringer makes the ideal playback system for that. How much they paying you to shill that thing, man? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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