Is it even possible to do it Black Flag style anymore?

[wezman2k]

 

If you can find it, rent the documentary "The Decline and Fall of Western Civilization" to get a feel for the LA punk scene in the early 80's. When you see the original singer for Black Flag (can't remember his name) literally living in a closet with his guitar player (an amazing use of limited space) maybe you'll see what I mean.

 

 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xrno3IkcMI[/YOUTUBE]

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xrno3IkcMI

 

i don't know why that video isn't showing up.

[sabriel9v]

I have read most of this thread and it is interesting... You should listen to people with some experience in what you are trying to do. Fling the Poo seems to be one of these people. Obviously you are not the first person, nor will you be the last, who has tried to do what you are trying, and many people (including myself) have experience with it and know how it works. Rather than being defensive or being fanatical about your ideas of how things should be, you should be open minded to hearing what other people who have already been there have to say. However, there are also people coming at it from a totally different perspective, and you should be wary of their opinions. There are two categories of these people in this thread: 1. People who have a different model of success than you do (ie: someone who sites Stevie Ray Vaughn as a successful musician, and says sleeping on floors is his nightmare). You should not listen to the advice of these people, because they are not giving advice on the same scene of music that you are interested in, and don't have the same ideals as you do in regard to "success." There is nothing wrong with these people having this different attitude, but their advice will lead in a different direction from what you are interested in because they don't understand the perspective you are coming from. 2. People who don't think touring is possible in this day of ipods and music downloading. These people may be interested in the same type of music as you are, but they have never actually toured extensively and therefore don't know whether it is possible or not, but tend to think it is not or that it is prohibitively difficult. These people are ignorant on the subject and also should not be listened to as far as specific advice about this topic is concerned (again, there is nothing wrong with their perspective, and I mean no disrespect). There IS still a thriving underground music scene, and it has not died because of music downloads. The underground music scene has never depended on album sales, and it is actually therefore not affected as much as mainstream music. This is a myth being propagated by people who don't know the scene from the inside. Again, not their fault, but they are not in a real position to give advice. A lot of bands are still playing underground tours because people still enjoy loud live music and the social atmosphere. Also underground music often still features special packaging, art, etc, which sells many people on the album just as much as the music (and this is a hint on making an album that will sell well in the underground). I know people who have been relatively successful in the underground music scene (and I have been myself) - they have put out many albums, toured with relatively "big" bands, (heck, even BEEN the "big" band), toured all over the world, etc... However, generally, when they are not touring, they still need to find a source of income when they come back home. Touring supports itself, and can even pay rent, but the money eventually dries up when they come back unless they go out on tour again. Personally, I did the tour on breaks while going to college thing, and it worked out for my purpose. At one point, due to this extensive touring two times a year, and the level of momentum and success it brought, I could have quit school and gone to just playing music, but I decided not to because personally I don't like the club/party atmosphere, but I am different in that way from a lot of people. Other people could and would have taken it further and it would have been something very rewarding for them. College is overrated in a way, because it does not guarantee you anything. However, you should be prepared to have something else to fall back on. Even if you DO want to do music forever, in a band, you are dealing with other people, and you never know what will happen to them. Maybe your buddy becomes a drug addict, or falls in love and quits the band, and the band gets screwed up and you have to start over from scratch, you have to figure out something you can do until you pull things back together. You can always work a crappy job, but you will be able to raise money more quickly for yourself if you have the piece of paper which qualifies you to earn more money. On the other hand, I know a lot of people who tour successfully and have college degrees which are basically a waste, because they don't work in the area of their degree anyway because they want jobs that they can ditch to go on tour whenever they want. It is up to you, but don't ignore the reality of living in the world we live in and the fact that money is generally needed to physically keep yourself alive. Myspace is not the devil, it is a tool. It can be used as something positive, or you can spend all day glued to the computer wasting your time. I know a band that is very hardcore anti-capitalist, anti-american, etc, and they use myspace as a tool because it is a structure that is already set up through which they can connect to people anywhere. Having successful tours requires networking. It is not called networking in the underground scene, but it is really the same thing. In reality it is just making friends, and the friends may be more genuine than in business networking, for example, but it is still networking. You have to build a network somehow. This is done in a more concrete way through touring and meeting new people who are into your music, but you can get it started with things like myspace. It also requires patience, because a completely unknown band is not likely to have a great tour the first time out. Likely you will lose money or at best break even on the first tour or two. Be prepared for this psychologically and financially. You may be totally into your band and think it is the best thing ever, but you need to give it time for word to get around. Also, having a lot of merch is helpful to a tour once you are out on the road. Having several recordings to sell (with good packaging that will make someone want to buy it), tour only releases, t-shirts, and any other item you can put your band's name and logo on will make you as much money as the door itself. One other thing that hasn't been mentioned that much but which more important than anything is that you need to be really good as a band. There are a lot of bands out there playing pretty much the exact same sound. You need to stand out as something that people are going to go out of their way to see.

Damn you just gave this kid the underground Bible. Props

[BlueStrat]

 

1. People who have a different model of success than you do (ie: someone who sites Stevie Ray Vaughn as a successful musician, and says sleeping on floors is his nightmare). You should not listen to the advice of these people, because they are not giving advice on the same scene of music that you are interested in, and don't have the same ideals as you do in regard to "success." There is nothing wrong with these people having this different attitude, but their advice will lead in a different direction from what you are interested in because they don't understand the perspective you are coming from.

 

 

Yes, that's pretty much me, and you're right.

 

Or I should say, I did travel and sleep on floors (and pool tables, and with ugly fat chicks, and in vans, and wherever else I could) but it was an entirely different scene-blues and roots rock pre-SRV. And it was only short trips, not full time, and when I did go full time, it was doing originals couched in covers, playing six nights a week in one place, 5-6 weeks out at a time, with rooms and a meal, etc. Completely different scene.

[fling the poo]

i forgot one major response to many of the posts here because sitting behind me is a 13year old kid who LOVES everything from Jeffree Star to against me to Job For A Cowboy to This Bike Is A Pipebomb. She's always asking to go see bands live and i take her when i can. She comes away with piles of merch. Then she rips the merch to her mp3 player and tosses the cds in a box but still... I can imagine when she's 15 buggin me to drop her off at the all ages venues. She wants to play guitar(she's learning Ramones and Paramour) She really does care about music and when shes got friends over they talk about bands and stuff, even tho shes the only one who has been able to go to an actual "show" (in addition to the arena concert)

 

she bakes cookies for the bands that crash on our floor. based on this experience alone, an the occasional house full of myspace obsessed ipod zombies i have no doubt in my mind that myspace is NOT ruining music for future generations.

[slight-return]

My uneasiness seems to come from not being able to do what I love doing.

 

 

Funny thing about the word "amateur", it's taken on a lot of extra baggage, but it literally means 'one who is involed in it for the love of it'

[bigdaddydave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xrno3IkcMI i don't know why that video isn't showing up.

Not so hard to find, I guess. Guess I'm still stuck in the brick and mortar era.

[sabriel9v]

i forgot one major response to many of the posts here because sitting behind me is a 13year old kid who LOVES everything from Jeffree Star to against me to Job For A Cowboy to This Bike Is A Pipebomb. She's always asking to go see bands live and i take her when i can. She comes away with piles of merch. Then she rips the merch to her mp3 player and tosses the cds in a box but still... I can imagine when she's 15 buggin me to drop her off at the all ages venues. She wants to play guitar(she's learning Ramones and Paramour) She really does care about music and when shes got friends over they talk about bands and stuff, even tho shes the only one who has been able to go to an actual "show" (in addition to the arena concert) she bakes cookies for the bands that crash on our floor. based on this experience alone, an the occasional house full of myspace obsessed ipod zombies i have no doubt in my mind that myspace is NOT ruining music for future generations.

She bakes cookies for the band? Thats so sweet

[tocs100]

touring and going broke beats the {censored} out of sending out promo packs, paying to play and going broke

More fun, def. But learning the recording/printing skills of a promo pack will transfer to later career paths like media/film/videogame design.

The only things I learned from touring are

a) you can't get laid if another bandmember is married, because all groupies are "thieves and sluts"

b) 90% of the clubs' soundguys can't mix to save their lives, which makes learning that skill that much more valuable for future career paths

--just my 2 cents.

[Booya Tribe]

b) 90% of the clubs' soundguys can't mix to save their lives, which makes learning that skill that much more valuable for future career paths

More reverb on the snare drum!!!

[Lurko]

I don't want to be Henry Rollins, I want to take what can be learned from him and his constituents and apply it to my own life as a means for a more fulfilling future. I don't think touring during college breaks would cut it. If you're going to do music, you're going to do music and it is what it is. I know what it's like to be in school all the time, and it's depressing to me. The idea of getting a steady job, working it every day and dying is too depressing for me. Going to college and trying to manage a band is a half-assed, {censored} excuse. Convince me otherwise, it'll help me see more clearly.

 

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

You think sitting is school all the time is depressing? Try being 37 years old with no retirement funds, living in an apartment with four other dudes, and going to work at the gas station...which is where you're headed.

 

But hey, it's your life. Live and learn, I guess.

[sabriel9v]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You think sitting is school all the time is depressing? Try being 37 years old with no retirement funds, living in an apartment with four other dudes, and going to work at the gas station...which is where you're headed. But hey, it's your life. Live and learn, I guess.

 

 

I dont know if thats the exact route one would take if they bypassed college, but life definitely is harder without a college degree. You can still see success pursuing an independent music career if you're truly talented and smart about your business.

[BATCAT]

Try being 37 years old with no retirement funds, living in an apartment with four other dudes, and going to work at the gas station...which is where you're headed.

Oh, yeah, that's exactly how everybody without a degree ends up.

EDIT: Should point out- I actually agree with staying in school, I'm just sayin...

[Booya Tribe]

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You think sitting is school all the time is depressing? Try being 37 years old with no retirement funds, living in an apartment with four other dudes, and going to work at the gas station...which is where you're headed. But hey, it's your life. Live and learn, I guess.

 

 

To play devil's advocate, at least these people live varied lives rather than selling their life away so they can retire one day.

 

Many artists work not so glamorous jobs because they prefer to use their life now and pursue what they want to do, rather than wait to use what's left of it when they are old.

 

Also, from what I have seen, many indie musicians who either didn't go to college or didn't follow up on what they went to college for can eventually settle into some kind of job which pays decent and provides the same benefits as other jobs. People connected with the undercurrent are attractive to magazines, television/movie production, online media, and other areas of the media. These areas can recognize artistic talent in a person even if they don't have a degree...

 

I can think right now of three friends I have known for a long time who either dropped out of college or just plain didn't go, who all work doing things they like and make a decent enough living in areas related to television advertising. If someone is creative, they can come up with a way to make a living.

 

This isn't to say everyone is like that... I know some other people that are 35 and still bar tending or working odd jobs... it is up to the person and the initiative they take and how much they care about retirement (and maybe a little luck) - education or not.

[wezman2k]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You think sitting is school all the time is depressing? Try being 37 years old with no retirement funds, living in an apartment with four other dudes, and going to work at the gas station...which is where you're headed. But hey, it's your life. Live and learn, I guess.

 

 

What did you do with your time between graduation and the present? I don't drink, I don't really enjoy partying, I don't touch any drugs except pot, and I know I'm not a dumb person.

 

It's not like I'm going to piss away my my time. This would be a JOB. Besides, I'll know when to call it a day. Sounds to me like it was more than just a lack of education that put you in the position you're in now.

[slight-return]

I can see how that comes across as sounding like I've officially made my decision

 

I don't think it comes across as though youve "officially" done anything, but it does sound like you've internally made the decision (that's why I posted that thing abt decisions and our awareness of our own decision making).

If you look at your posts, they are defaulting to doing the van-tour. The points supporting that are always in the positive ( "I'll know when to call it a day" , and such) and the points for the other options tend to be more in the negative ("I'm just under the impression that that mentality is what leads to typical middle aged men.." and such)

 

 

Humor me with an exercise, go back and reread your posts almost like they were journal entries...the ones that are in direct response - maybe read those like answers to the nagging worries/voices

just see how you feel abt it as reader as well as writer

(I'm not expecting any particular cnclusion. This isn't a direction thing, just a perspective thing)

 

 

 

If I may, I'd like to offer up some anecdotal stuff I've observed (I mention it's anecdotal b/c I can only really speak from what I've experienced, so I'm not saying it's the way it is, or that other peeps can't have different experiences - Hell, I don't even have a "go-no go" opinion so much...it's a judgement call)

 

anyway - wrenched my way through college (CS/CE & classical guit double) a music shops (so got a lot of daily exposure to a variety of people along the path ) and one thing I did notice..

I hestitate to say a majority, let's just say a {censored}load (signifigant percentage, I mean a very signifigant percentage) of people at your time of life would express "music as a profession is the only thing I'm going to be happy doing"

 

Take that for what you will. I'm not saying that isn't true...for some, maybe for all! I'm not saying it's a phase, I'm not saying it's something that dies if you don't feed it. I'm not really making a judgement on that.

I'm just relating what I found aas far as my personal experience goes.

 

 

 

 

Personaally, I don't think I was happy until, oh I dunno 25, maybe 28 (definitely not 27 though, that year sucked balls) - a Norse friend of mine said his family called it "the time of lieing in ashes", the time of uneasy unhappiness in a young (mid/late teen through early 20s) man's life.

I just thought it was interesting that it was common enough that they had an expression for it - and I've seen it as fairly common at that time of life.

 

 

 

On both counts, I'm not saying "Oh everyone feels like that" in a dismissive, sense...If anything just saying "Welcome brother"

[Jesse G]

No matter how great it was or the amount of exposure you got while on tour, If your band didn't make money on tour than the tour FAILED. Period.

 

 

The way you get signed, is by being resourceful enough to arrange your own tour and make money.

 

If your not resourceful enough as a band to accomplish that, no label worth talking to is gonna give you the time of day.

[slight-return]

Oh, a couple more thoughts if I may

On :


I've been on a stage twice in my life, and both times they brought about a satisfaction that I don't think I've ever really felt before.


You'll feel that high for sure, that's part of it (why there are so many people who want to do it, why there is karaoke, etc). One that comes to my mind though, that's performance -- that isn't music itself, they can intersect, they can have existence apart.
em, might be something to reflect on to - just food for thought


ON :

But I guess I really don't know much at my age...

My grandma thought the same thing in her 90s...socratically wise me thinks


ON :

Eventually they get a steady job that they may or may not work for the rest of their lives, meet the wife, have children, raise children, and die. They stick to the same town, the same people and sleepwalk through life. It's just hard to imagine falling into that.


At this point in your life, domesticity sounds like a trap...I suspect that's largely being 19 (Im NOT saying it's niave, I'M NOT saying it's wrong...it's part of that time of our lives)
A couple of things about that
the "sleepwalking" part - someone talked a little bit about that earlier on. That's a mindstate, it ain't situation and some of that stuff (like being responsible for another human life...) that could be a real head-tweaker.
That's more aboout approach and disposition (and, at 19, it probably should seem like a death sentence as you aren't in that place right now)

the "same town" part - just anecdotally (and Im just throwing this out as some beta from my situation). In my [YMMV in spades], it seemed to turn out that the ones who didn't do the school thing, etc wound up in the 'same ole, same ole' situation.
So just use caution, you are, after all, talking abt "moving back" -- no playing the gambit is totally valid and it can help us avoid the "foothills" problem to get someplace else. Just be careful there because it is "moving back"

[sabriel9v]

No matter how great it was or the amount of exposure you got while on tour, If your band didn't make money on tour than the tour FAILED . Period. The way you get signed, is by being resourceful enough to arrange your own tour and make money. If your not resourceful enough as a band to accomplish that, no label worth talking to is gonna give you the time of day.

 

 

I disagree with that statement. Just because you end up in the red financially doesn't mean your tour failed. If David Geffen or the president of Downtown Recordings catches my group while on tour and wants to sign me, then my tour wasnt a failure. A great deal of exposure to the right people can do miracles for a good and well deserving band or artist. Everyone wants to make money on their tours and that's one of the main objectives. But saying that if you don't make any significant cash while on tour, it's a complete failure...those words are a little too overwhelming and dramatic to me.

[fling the poo]

No matter how great it was or the amount of exposure you got while on tour, If your band didn't make money on tour than the tour FAILED . Period. The way you get signed, is by being resourceful enough to arrange your own tour and make money. If your not resourceful enough as a band to accomplish that, no label worth talking to is gonna give you the time of day.

 

 

 

its not always about the money. remember some of us are out there on holiday as well. you try spending two weeks in japan for 75 bucks.

[wholesaler]

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[wezman2k]

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thanks for the bump and spam.

[fling the poo]

thanks for the bump and spam.

 

 

bold move quoting it back for them too!

[BonzoMcbrain]

I'm just shocked I'm not the only one from Delaware on here.

 

Small world huh?

[Lurko]

What did you do with your time between graduation and the present? I don't drink, I don't really enjoy partying, I don't touch any drugs except pot, and I know I'm not a dumb person. It's not like I'm going to piss away my my time. This would be a JOB. Besides, I'll know when to call it a day. Sounds to me like it was more than just a lack of education that put you in the position you're in now.

 

 

It might be a JOB. But I doubt it will be one that will have any lasting impact. The odds are MASSIVELY against you making a living at this. But like I said, it's your life, you can spend it how you wish. But I can tell you that I have friends who thought the same way you do and are now staring down the barrel of working until they die at a crappy McJob just to eat. Not good.

 

And to the guy who suggested I haven't "lived life," suffice to say that a whole, fullfilling life can be had without throwing your future security down the garbage chute.

[soundwave106]

It might be a JOB. But I doubt it will be one that will have any lasting impact. The odds are MASSIVELY against you making a living at this.

 

 

The rock star lifestyle or music as a whole? Personally, I think even today you can have an okay career as a musician. That is, provided you really learn music as a craft (multiple skillsets is a strong point of course -- if your musicianship is questionable and you don't make the zeitgeist of pop music, you won't have too many other musical roads to turn towards), have strong networking skills, are willing to be flexible on your creativite side (99 out of 100 "great ideas!" fail), and are willing to do other people's work, not just your own. It's tougher these days, of course. But if it's the only thing you want to do, and you are qualified enough, I think you can still do okay. Well, "okay" meaning "beats the job at Mickey D's" but hey, it's more fun to schlurp out music than flip burgers.