Members Ed A. Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 Sorry, but that just leaves me cold. It's almost like listening to the Buggles or Asia and not Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 Sorry, but that just leaves me cold. It's almost like listening to the Buggles or Asia and not Yes. To each his own. Obviously it's much more 80s than 70s. But it's hardly "cheesy" or a sell-out. It isn't like they started recording Diane Warren ballads. Yes was a band that was pretty much left for dead after the mid 70s. I thought that was a brilliant comeback album. Timely, edgy and progressive. Hard to be "progressive" if you continuely sound like you did in 1972, wouldn't you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Folder Posted July 22, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 I don't think Stevie "cheesed out". I think he just wasn't up to topping his incredible earlier work. Imagine trying to follow Innerversions! Nearly every song on that is a hit. Who can sustain that kind of genius? Even Albert Einstein didn't have any big hits after the general theory of relativity. If "Part Time Lover" and "I Just Called to Say I Love You" were on "Innervisions" and "Higher Ground" and "Living For the City" were on "In Square Circle" then I might feel the opposite of how I feel about them now. The way a song is produced and arranged has a lot to do with it's relative cheese factor.The 80's was the decade of cheese as far as production was concerned. MIDI, digital sequencing and drum machines seemed pretty cool at the time, especially for musicians into technology. (I think they still are cool in certain situations and if used properly). It was all new and exciting and pretty expensive stuff. A lot of musicians probably thought that programing machines was the cutting edge of the future. I thought that too for while until I started feeling something was missing. What was missing was stuff like groove, swing, feel, behind the beat accents, push and pull of the tempo. MIDI resolution wasn't like it is today. 48 pulses per quarter note was pretty standard, so most stuff was heavily quantised. Not to mention some pretty god awful, thin sounding 80's digital keyboard sounds and those cheesy gated snares. I doubt if he wrote and recorded "Higher Ground" in 1984 it would be considered the classic song it has become today. I know Stevie played the drums on a lot of his early seventies stuff. He's one of my favorite drummers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 I definately agree that Stevie's stuff lost some edge when he started using a drum machine as opposed to playing live drums. But "Part-Time Lover" and "I Just Called To Say I Love You" are cheezy for reasons that go beyond just the technology though. From a songwriting standpoint, those songs seem like he was just phoning it in compared to what he wrote a few years earlier. There's a world of differences between "Called" and earlier ballads like "You Are The Sunshine" and "All In Love Is Fair". Both of which suffer from a certain dated-ness as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philbo Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 I'm 'happy' to say I thought Maroon 5 were some of worst dreck I ever heard right from the top. I wouldn't have liked their simpering, wimp rock even if it hadn't been for the hideously tuned vocals -- but their exceptionally clumsy use of tuning was the sewage frosting on the cake.That said, I do get the arc from personal fave to personal pariah -- and Folder's other examples all work for me, except that I'd already stopped listening to most of those artists before his negative examples kicked in. But I HAD really liked some aspects of all of them.* But the downward arc is the same (and where I know the examples he cites, they certainly would have pushed me over the edge had I not already been long off it). For me, one of the truly bitterest of these meteoric descents would have to be Rod Stewart. I liked him with Jeff Beck, but I thought his first few albums as a solo and with the Faces were really sharp. Fine writing, fine playing, well-chosen covers. Stewart's patented singing. But by mid-decade his cooing that drivel about "spread your wings and let me come inside." For gawsh sake, what treacly, insipid crap.* In fact, only days ago, was just thinking about "Madman Across the Water" and had to put it on. Enigmatic lyrics, perhaps, but really sold by the music. I'd almost say a great song, in its cryptic way. I don't think it cryptic at all. To me, it is the musings of someone who has lost their sanity, and is locked in an asylum on an island and his worst nightmare is when his relatives visit. Read the lyrics & tell me if it makes sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philbo Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 I always thought Genesis was great, but Phil Collins ballads... man... kill me before I have to hear one again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 Maybe the most interesting thing of all is the artists' own take on some of this stuff. As opposed to our takes which are infused with our own age and where we were when certain songs were written/released. Like many others, I prefer Bernie Taupin's earlier lyrics; I've read where he thinks most of them were immature ramblings of a wannabe poet who hadn't really learned to become a lyricist yet. The guys in Genesis think a lot of the earlier 'prog' stuff was just a lot of overplaying because they hadn't really learned how to craft a proper song yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kurdy Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 Maybe the most interesting thing of all is the artists' own take on some of this stuff. As opposed to our takes which are infused with our own age and where we were when certain songs were written/released. Like many others, I prefer Bernie Taupin's earlier lyrics; I've read where he thinks most of them were immature ramblings of a wannabe poet who hadn't really learned to become a lyricist yet. The guys in Genesis think a lot of the earlier 'prog' stuff was just a lot of overplaying because they hadn't really learned how to craft a proper song yet. ^^This. How do you define Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zooey Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 Changes from 90125 is a great tune. Probably my first exposure to prog (I was 12 when it came out, and other than Rush's Moving Pictures, had never heard anything like it). I also think Trevor Horn is a genius, so what do I know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 Another one from "90125" that blew me away at the time. But I'm easily impressed. [video=youtube;-M9JE9R9ld4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M9JE9R9ld4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 I don't think it cryptic at all. To me, it is the musings of someone who has lost their sanity, and is locked in an asylum on an island and his worst nightmare is when his relatives visit. Read the lyrics & tell me if it makes sense...Actually, now that I think about it, I suspect you're right. I think I was thinking back to the first time I really heard it (I never owned any EJ) which was late one night at a particular girl's house and I suspect my reality was somehow enhanced. Anyhow, it's a pretty cool track with a great, scary mood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 I always thought Genesis was great, but Phil Collins ballads... man... kill me before I have to hear one again!I actually rather liked the first few Genesis albums with Collins singing. I never owned them but I'd hear them at a buddy's house and I thought they sounded pretty good, considering. That reminds me, I haven't heard any Genesis in a long time. I'll go for my faves with PG, of course, but I think I'll check my take on those post-PG Genesis tracks. I'm gonna have to throw that into my holding playlist in my 'srip service. PS... I thought the "Owner of a Lonely Heart" production job and the slick, then-cutting edge vid really did mark a strong comeback. But I have to say that I preferred the old Yes to pretty much everything else I heard from them in the 80s. But, man, that rhythm section, Bruford & Squire, they had a great sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rasputin1963 Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 ^^This. How do you define Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rasputin1963 Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 Jefferson Starship's "We Built This City" has really become the poster-child for bad or cheezy song. It's the song that people Love To Hate. Now here's where I am mystified: I think it is an excellent record in every way. Great theme, great harmonies, great lyrics, great melody. I remember Kantner/Balin/Slick, at the time, talking about how the digital revolution had taken over music in the mid-80's. So they decided their next album had to really employ some digital magic. And it does! Far from compromising, the lyric's politics still take a lefty, counter-cultural tone (even though the band were in their 40's at the time). This is a record I cannot fault. Granted, it's not verging upon the weird and subterranean, as was the nascent British vogue at the time--- like, say, The Smiths or Psychedelic Furs or Simple Minds, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rasputin1963 Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 I love the way, in Country-Western music, they'll present you with a song that has the earmarks of "cheese"... and your hip, cynical side tries to fend it off.... until the song stabs you with its genuine poignance. How 'bout this: [video=youtube;10Cg8XGX1wY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Cg8XGX1wY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 from Wagner to The Viveatless Cecilia cheesed out completly to Vivaldi renaissance bubble gum sixties pop, just look at that god damn mainstram {censored} at 10:20 which insults the musicality of all connaisseur [video=youtube;5QTip0KWPt4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QTip0KWPt4 14:25 :facepalm: :facepalm: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 Jefferson Starship's "We Built This City" has really become the poster-child for bad or cheezy song. It's the song that people Love To Hate. Now here's where I am mystified: I think it is an excellent record in every way. Great theme, great harmonies, great lyrics, great melody. I remember Kantner/Balin/Slick, at the time, talking about how the digital revolution had taken over music in the mid-80's. So they decided their next album had to really employ some digital magic. And it does! Far from compromising, the lyric's politics still take a lefty, counter-cultural tone (even though the band were in their 40's at the time). This is a record I cannot fault. Granted, it's not verging upon the weird and subterranean, as was the nascent British vogue at the time--- like, say, The Smiths or Psychedelic Furs or Simple Minds, etc. Kantner and Balin had nothing to do with "We Built This City". This was a product of the later Mickey Thomas/Slick version of the band after both Kantner and Balin had departed. (Balin having left many years earlier.) The production on that album is courtesy of Peter Wolf as is virtually all the keyboard playing and technological contributions and most of the songwriting. I don't know how directily involved the band was in any of this is. I suspect no more than Chicago was in their David Foster-produced records of the same period. I think this song has become the 'poster child' for cheese in part because the band itself was so far removed from its original moorings at this point. Only Slick remained from the old Airplane days. You make some good points about cheese and insincerity, but I don't see how this song ranks any less on the sincerity scale than what Chicago or Rod Stewart were doing at the same time. How is this song more sincere than "You're The Inspiration" or "Love Touch"? Not sure I see that. Truth is, none of were present during the making of these records. We can't know how sincere the efforts of the musicians were or their connection to the music. We may personally not enjoy it, especially when compared to the artists' earlier works, but that doesn't in and of itself diminish the effort and work the artists put into the recordings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted July 22, 2012 Moderators Share Posted July 22, 2012 Jefferson Starship's "We Built This City" has really become the poster-child for bad or cheezy song. It's the song that people Love To Hate. Now here's where I am mystified: I think it is an excellent record in every way. Great theme, great harmonies, great lyrics, great melody. I remember Kantner/Balin/Slick, at the time, talking about how the digital revolution had taken over music in the mid-80's. So they decided their next album had to really employ some digital magic. And it does! Far from compromising, the lyric's politics still take a lefty, counter-cultural tone (even though the band were in their 40's at the time). This is a record I cannot fault. Granted, it's not verging upon the weird and subterranean, as was the nascent British vogue at the time--- like, say, The Smiths or Psychedelic Furs or Simple Minds, etc. Wow. I do admire someone willing and able to speak their mind without concern for what's socially acceptable or in vogue. So... you certainly score points there. I'm the same way. Screw 'em if they don't like my opinion. All I know is, that record, from the very first listen for me, plodded along like a white guy with the flu so his whole groove was off. But jacked up on ephedrine. Stumbling on cracks in the sidewalk. Any sort of flow or sense of natural development seemed to be disregarded. Like the guy with the flu has his eyes closed as he stumbled down the sidewalk, uncertain where he was going. Clearly uncertain. And lets hear that awesome pre chorus and chorus one more freaking time!!! Lyrically, performance-wise, pocket (lack of), sounds. All of it was like the biggest "fall-down-drunk-on-the-dance-floor-at-the-wedding-reception-on-videotape-for-all-to-enjoy-for-years-to-come" moment. I always pictured Grace dancing the funky chicken while singing it. Just clucking away. Maybe it's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 Wow. I do admire someone willing and able to speak their mind without concern for what's socially acceptable or in vogue. So... you certainly score points there. I'm the same way. Screw 'em if they don't like my opinion. All I know is, that record, from the very first listen for me, plodded along like a white guy with the flu so his whole groove was off. But jacked up on ephedrine. Stumbling on cracks in the sidewalk. Any sort of flow or sense of natural development seemed to be disregarded. Like the guy with the flu has his eyes closed as he stumbled down the sidewalk, uncertain where he was going. Clearly uncertain. And lets hear that awesome pre chorus and chorus one more freaking time!!! Lyrically, performance-wise, pocket (lack of), sounds. All of it was like the biggest "fall-down-drunk-on-the-dance-floor-at-the-wedding-reception-on-videotape-for-all-to-enjoy-for-years-to-come" moment. I always pictured Grace dancing the funky chicken while singing it. Just clucking away. Maybe it's just me. Like you I was initially repelled by the manufactured-pop sound of the track. A band trying too hard to be contemporary and what struck me as a horrible lyric in the chorus. By the time we got to 1985, any song with the words "rock and roll" in the hook was just screaming 'cheese'. And then it was on the radio every 15 minutes. Lost in all that is the fact that I never actually paid attention to any of the lyrics beyond the chorus. My bad. I should have given Bernie a bit more credit. As Rasputin indicated, the actual lyrics aren't quite as bad as the banal chorus implies. Certainly no worse than other 'rock' lyrics he wrote for Elton such as "Saturday Night's Alright for Fighting": Say you don't know me or recognize my face Say you don't care who goes to that kind of place Knee deep in the hoopla sinking in your fight Too many runaways eating up the night Marconi plays the mamba, listen to the radio, don't you remember We built this city, we built this city on rock and roll Someone always playing corporation games Who cares they're always changing corporation names We just want to dance here someone stole the stage They call us irresponsible write us off the page Marconi plays the mamba, listen to the radio, don't you remember We built this city, we built this city on rock and roll It's just another Sunday, in a tired old street Police have got the choke hold, oh then we just lost the beat Who counts the money underneath the bar Who rides the wrecking ball in to our rock guitars Don't tell us you need us, 'cos we're the ship of fools Looking for America, coming through your schools (I'm looking out over that Golden Gate bridge Out on another gorgeous sunny Saturday, not seein' that bumper to bumper traffic) Don't you remember ('member)('member) (It's your favorite radio station, in your favorite radio city The city by the bay, the city that rocks, the city that never sleeps) Marconi plays the mamba, listen to the radio, don't you remember We built this city, we built this city on rock and roll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kurdy Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 Truth is, none of were present during the making of these records. We can't know how sincere the efforts of the musicians were or their connection to the music. We may personally not enjoy it, especially when compared to the artists' earlier works, but that doesn't in and of itself diminish the effort and work the artists put into the recordings. Bernie Taupin wrote the lyrics, I know that much. Definitely not your standard pop love song fare. Not sure you'd hear a song with a such a complex theme on the radio today. But I am not a Jefferson Airplane/Starship fan, so I could care less about the group's legacy or whatever. To me, the song is just a not-great-but-decent '80s pop song. The idea that the person or group listed as the "artist" has to believe in every word and every note seems to be something that musicians and music fans like to buy into. But I'm not sure if it's even relevant. The people who did write and produce that record had to believe in it on some level, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered making it. David Foster (producer of Chicago's '80s hits) said in his book that he makes middle-of-the-road music because he loves it. Yes, he happens to have made a lot of money doing it. But monetary success or no, I find it difficult to imagine the people involved in writing and producing these records not getting burned out really quick if they didn't love what they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 you guys are hard in critique with those mainstream poppers would be interesting to hear what you guys compose in the selling genre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 David Foster (producer of Chicago's '80s hits) said in his book that he makes middle-of-the-road music because he loves it. Yes, he happens to have made a lot of money doing it. But monetary success or no, I find it difficult to imagine the people involved in writing and producing these records not getting burned out really quick if they didn't love what they do. Which is why these mega-producers often quickly move on and leave the 'artists' behind, I think. In case of Foster/Chicago, Foster had just made a great album for The Tubes with "The Completion Backwards Principle". He applied a lot of this same sensibility to "Chicago 16" and created what I think was, like the Tubes record and Yes' "90125", a very good, timely and progressive record for a band who is otherwise a dead-in-the-water relic from the previous decade. I thought "16" was awesome for 1982. This was also prior to Foster's sound becoming so ubiquitous and eventually stale. With "17" it became clear the focus was on repeating the "hit" sounds on "16" and less on being progressive. So the "cheese" factor rises. By "18" it's clear the formula is wearing thin and he takes his skills elsewhere leaving Chicago to flounder. But I didn't think there was anything cheezy about "16" at the time it was released. It was fresh and cutting edge. David Foster still in the early stages of his refining his craft. Chicago were lucky to be a part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted July 22, 2012 Moderators Share Posted July 22, 2012 you guys are hard in critique with those mainstream poppers would be interesting to hear what you guys compose in the selling genre I'm usually very much against hurling insults at other musicians. I consider that song a particularly potent example of things gone wrong. That's all. I've taken your stance many times (almost always) with posters tossing insults at other artists. It is few and far between that I do it. But don't mistake me for someone without any insight in this. Regarding the lyric. It always struck me as a good lyric that was very susceptible to bad musical interpretation and performance. Grace Slick and Marty Balin's stiff reading and awkward punctuation of accenting certain syllables is remarkable in it ability to render the lyric silly. Read, it's pretty cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 Marty Balin's Again, just for the sake of accuracy, that was Mickey Thomas. Thomas replaced Balin around about 1978 and sang big hits such as "Jane" and "Find Your Way Back". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted July 22, 2012 Members Share Posted July 22, 2012 I don't even think much about what pop/rock song is better then another pop/rock song, there are anyway only a few dozen songs I like, for example from Gladys Knight or Sergio Mendes and a few others, but also those are full cheese Fondue, or as the Swiss say FIGUGEL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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