Punk or Metal?

[UstadKhanAli]

Everything that I have related about my own experiences have been accurate. There was a polarization among many people that I knew in the 1980s. As a matter of fact that polarization still exists to an extent among some of my friends. I envisioned this as a light hearted thread for people who remembered the basic "rock music trends" of the eighties. (not funk or R&B or Jazz or country or classical) I suspect that most people on this forum have always had broad tastes in music and like multiple genres. I know I do. If your experiences were different than mine that's fine. It's really not that big of a deal.

 

Well, it's not just mine. Look at all the posts here. And it's not my opinion. I mean, it's a fact that lots of people listened to lots of different kinds of music. Who else was buying all those Whitney Houston albums?

 

There were a lot of people who listened to punk. A lot of people who listened to New Wave. A lot of people who liked Top 40 and pop. A lot of people who listened to metal. A lot of people who listened to metal "lite" (Bon Jovi, White Lion, Journey, whatever that group is that sang "Sister Christian", that kind of thing). At our school, we also had a lot of people who listened to funk and R&B. There were some that listened to progressive rock - not a lot, but some. A few who listened to blues.

 

Anyway, it is a light-hearted thing. And I think we've all made our point, so no need to carry this on too long, I think!

[Folder]

 

Anyway, it is a light-hearted thing. And I think we've all made our point, so no need to carry this on too long, I think!

 

 

If you want to check out fine. But if anybody else has something to say on the topic I'd be interested in reading it. Most of the reply's so far have been informative to me.

[UstadKhanAli]

Not cutting out of the thread in general, but making the same point. Not checking out. Just not gonna continue making the same point in what is a fun thread, that's all.

[sharkbait]

I definitely remember a punk vs. metal "thing" in the early/mid eighties! Bands that started out "punk" and then "went metal" were castigated by hardcore fanzines like Maximum Rock and Roll and others. I think the idea was that hardcore would never be commercial, hence was the true prole sound and politically righteous, whereas any bit of metal creeping in was the opposite of all that. I so remember it!

 

A high-profile example was when the band X released the "Wild Thing" 12", produced by some hard-rock pro, and were roundly criticized for creating a bloated, uncool sound and selling out to the Man.

 

It's a silly non-issue and I'm glad it's quaint history. Still, I think modern music is diffuse and aimless in a way it never was before, and I wonder how much of that is due to losing that genre purity protected by that tribalism, like first world influences diluting traditional ethnic musics.

 

I was in my late teens and early 20s at the turn of the 70s/80s, and lived in LA, Santa Cruz and San Francisco, California. The cultural aspects of Punk were meaningful to me, for sure! There was a couple of years where loudfast!!! was all I listened to. Everything else sounded anemic in comparison, culturally as well as sonically, if you get me. I was too musically curious to "stay there", but I know exactly what Folder is referring to.

[sharkbait]

By the way, there was a funny short film made back in the 80s by, I think, Dave Markey (Desperate Teenage Lovedolls)), about a Jets vs Sharks style schoolyard rumble pitting The Zeppelin Stoner Metal Kids against The Speed Metal Kids. It worked on several levels- mocking metal fans (from the filmmaker's punk perspective, an example of what Folder's talking about) and the absurdity of parsing genres (little did he know the zillion sub genres that were to come!).

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Originally Posted by Folder

Back in the 1980's there was a split that took place among a lot of rock music fans.

On one side you had the punk/new wavers and on the other side you had the heavy metal kids. This divide was pretty serious for a lot of people and it still exists to an extent, but I'm not sure if people under a certain age are even aware of it.

 

I know this is sort of a light-hearted discussion and we're hardly going at each other's throats, but I still feel like I owe you an apology. I completely misremembered what you were saying. It looks like you're just saying that there was a rift between punk and metal, not that all things were divided into two camps. Sorry about that.

[Folder]

 

Originally Posted by girevik

The documentary did hint at Queen feeling a bit threatened by punk, and thus being inspired to risk alienating their existing audience by trying new things (eg. the minimalist funk hit "Another One Bites the Dust", incorporating synths, etc.).

 

Well this is where I think the split first started. Although there were proto-punk/new wave bands as far back as the mid sixties like Iggy Pop and the Stooges, MC5 and The Velvet Underground and there were hard rock and proto-metal bands like Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple and Black Sabbath. I think it was the English punk bands of 1976 that fired the first shots by openly deriding the big "dinosaur" rock bands of the seventies.

John Lydon used to antagonise people by wearing an "I hate Pink Floyd" T-shirt. and for a lot of surburban rock fans where I grew up this was considered sacrilege. Especially coming from a disrespectful, filthy, untalented punk rocker named Johnny Rotten. How dare he !

I was at a party with a bunch of progressive rock and classic rock fans the night this was on Saturday Night Live:

 

You could feel the disdain in the air.

People were watching in silence while making disgusting faces. What the hell was it? Was it a skit? Was it a real band? Finally some girl shouted out "Is this supposed to be a joke"?

I was attracted to it but I couldn't say anything because then I would be exposed.

I guess an analogy would be like being the only Obama supporter at a tea party rally.

I didn't really understand what I just saw but I knew I wanted to see it again which would take another thirty years.

[Folder]

 

Originally Posted by UstadKhanAli

I know this is sort of a light-hearted discussion and we're hardly going at each other's throats, but I still feel like I owe you an apology. I completely misremembered what you were saying. It looks like you're just saying that there was a rift between punk and metal, not that all things were divided into two camps. Sorry about that.

 

No problem.

Like I said everybody has different experiences. For most people it meant nothing. I have some non-musician friends who don't know there is a difference between punk and metal. And like people have been saying, a lot of the bands that have been mentioned were not really punk or metal but might have fallen along the fringes of one or the other.

[Surrealistic]

 

Originally Posted by Folder

...You could feel the disdain in the air.

People were watching in silence while making disgusting faces. What the hell was it? Was it a skit? Was it a real band? Finally some girl shouted out "Is this supposed to be a joke"?

 

An interesting point that just occurred to me on reading this (so, fair warning, I might be talking nonsense off the top of my head), perhaps one of the differentiators between punk/new wave and metal/hard rock is that there's often an element of humour, (or at least playfulness and self-deprecation) in the former and very rarely (if ever) in the latter.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Originally Posted by Folder

No problem.

Like I said everybody has different experiences. For most people it meant nothing. I have some non-musician friends who don't know there is a difference between punk and metal. And like people have been saying, a lot of the bands that have been mentioned were not really punk or metal but might have fallen along the fringes of one or the other.

 

Well, the funny part is that I got what you were saying at first, and was just having fun with it. And somewhere along the way, in my feeble overworked brain of mine, I morphed it into you saying that the punk vs. metal thing were the ONLY two camps going on instead of simply being one of numerous camps or "conflicts". This is what happens when you're moving, I guess. Sheeesh.

Usually if I misinterpret someone, it's from the get-go, and I simply read it too quickly. But not this time!!!

[Zooey]

 

Originally Posted by Surrealistic

An interesting point that just occurred to me on reading this (so, fair warning, I might be talking nonsense off the top of my head), perhaps one of the differentiators between punk/new wave and metal/hard rock is that there's often an element of humour, (or at least playfulness and self-deprecation) in the former and very rarely (if ever) in the latter.

 

It may not be humor, but it's not exactly serious. The most crushing, heaviest metal bands of the past few years are currently singing about orcs, wizards, Norse gods, and smoking pot. These are bands that make Iron Maiden sound like Britney Spears. And speaking of Iron Maiden, I doubt they took themselves all that seriously, either.

Shows like Metalocalypse and Spinal Tap don't so much poke fun at metal, as let you in on the joke and reveal humor that is already there.

I would submit your average pop or R&B star takes him/herself way more seriously than most metal artists.

[girevik]

 

Originally Posted by Zooey

It may not be humor, but it's not exactly serious. The most crushing, heaviest metal bands of the past few years are currently singing about orcs, wizards, Norse gods, and smoking pot. These are bands that make Iron Maiden sound like Britney Spears. And speaking of Iron Maiden, I doubt they took themselves all that seriously, either.

 

This.

A lot of today's darker metal bands are like WWF wrestlers - they put on a mean face, but if you look closely enough, you can see the mischievous glint in their eyes - it's a circus act.

Van Halen may be considered more hard rock than metal, but David Lee Roth was/is a more overt representative of humor in metal/hard rock. "Come on Dave, give me a break... One break... Coming up!"

In DC, Fugazi and other regional punk bands were thought of as being too serious at times - all that politically fueled rage...

[Jimbroni]

 

Originally Posted by girevik

This.

A lot of today's darker metal bands are like WWF wrestlers - they put on a mean face, but if you look closely enough, you can see the mischievous glint in their eyes - it's a circus act.

Van Halen may be considered more hard rock than metal, but David Lee Roth was/is a more overt representative of humor in metal/hard rock. "Come on Dave, give me a break... One break... Coming up!"

In DC, Fugazi and other regional punk bands were thought of as being too serious at times - all that politically fueled rage...

 

Alot of young punkers, have this sort of pretentious style not unlike hipsters of any ilk, that they feel they have to maintain at all times. As where alot of metal dudes know its a costume. Then again there is not alot of young metal dudes these days, as to compare. But punk is still relevent and alot of youngsters feel the need express their so called hipness by looking the part. So I'm gonna take exception to the idea punk is all fun and games, and metal people are too serious. Ever been to a GWAR concert? I'm not taking the side of metal over punk by any means, I'm just saying pretentious douchebags exist on every playing field.

[Folder]

 

Originally Posted by Anderton

I remember listening to Genesis when the Sex Pistols and the Damned came out.

 

Me too.

At the time I think the gist of the argument boiled down to Genesis and the all those dinosaur 70's bands were considered to be good musicans. A lot of rock music was getting more complex and then all of a sudden these snot nosed kids who could barely play their instruments started making simpler three chord music. Not only that, they had the nerve to give the finger to the people who liked the big rock bands of the day.

Now if you were sitting around with your friends all day debating whether Clapton, Beck or Page was the best guitarist who played with the Yardbirds then these punks might be offensive to you.

As time went on into the eighties most of those metal and hard rock bands all had hot shot guitar players and if you were still judging music based on that kind of shear musicianship then you might have aligned yourself with the metal camp.

For me, although I valued musicianship and still do, most of that eighties metal stuff left me cold. I thought most of it was tasteless and cheesy.

Even though they were not musical virtuosos it was bands like XTC and Talking Heads and R.E.M. that I felt were on the cutting edge of the times.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Originally Posted by Folder

For me, although I valued musicianship and still do, most of that eighties metal stuff left me cold. I thought most of it was tasteless and cheesy.

 

Especially as the '80s went on, metal seemed to grow cheesier. The '80s started off with Maiden and Priest having good albums, after all.

 

Even though they were not musical virtuosos it was bands like XTC and Talking Heads and R.E.M. that I felt were on the cutting edge of the times.

 

I thought so. It was interesting and different.

[Folder]

 

Originally Posted by UstadKhanAli

Especially as the '80s went on, metal seemed to grow cheesier.

 

Yep, which I think set the stage for grunge to come busting on to the scene.

[Folder]

 

Originally Posted by Surrealistic

An interesting point that just occurred to me on reading this (so, fair warning, I might be talking nonsense off the top of my head), perhaps one of the differentiators between punk/new wave and metal/hard rock is that there's often an element of humour, (or at least playfulness and self-deprecation) in the former and very rarely (if ever) in the latter.

 

I think you're right, but I also think there can be a fine line between humor and sincerity and most people were probably never in on the jokes.

As a typical kid growing up in 1970's suburban America I can remember being shocked by stuff like this:

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Originally Posted by Folder

Yep, which I think set the stage for grunge to come busting on to the scene.

 

Definitely. Cheesy hair metal looked really silly in a hurry with the Seattle bands, which were a direct punkish sort of backlash.

[Hard Truth]

 

Originally Posted by Surrealistic

An interesting point that just occurred to me on reading this (so, fair warning, I might be talking nonsense off the top of my head), perhaps one of the differentiators between punk/new wave and metal/hard rock is that there's often an element of humour, (or at least playfulness and self-deprecation) in the former and very rarely (if ever) in the latter.

 

Good point. That was one of the reasons I could never take heavy metal seriously-it took itself too seriously. Which is why the Spinal Tap movie was so hilarious. Interestingly, few of the serious heavy metal bands got played on MTV, but the self mocking hair metal bands did get a lot of air play. Much of the reason for that is that the older, bearded, often chubby, older bands had little sex appeal to teenage girls.

[philbo]

Man, I don't know what to tell you.... Around 1976 I found that I no longer enjoyed any of the music I could get from mass media outlets (AM/FM/record stores). So I quit buying music and justed wrote and recorded my own stuff for the next 20 years or so. That went on until about 1995, when I started buying blues and jazz CDs.

I guess I missed this big schism between punk and metal you're talking about in the OP. Who won the war?

[Consume]

I am a Die-hard Metalhead who also listened to punk. My friend's didn't get it, but I loved stuff like the Ramones, Sex Pistols, the Misfits, Fear, The Dictators (Their lead Guitarist "Ross The Boss" started Manowar, and their Bass Player Mark Mendoza played bass in Twisted Sister), The Damned, The Lords of the New Church, etc.

On the Metal side of things, I was listening to Saxon, Iron Maiden, Motorhead, Manowar (The Kings of Metal AND Cheese), Mercyful Fate, Dio, Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, W.A.S.P., etc. The more Satanic they were, the more I listened to them.

Essentially, I was really into the Leather & Spike bands - and I still am. I remember going to see Quiet Riot opening for Iron Maiden in 1983 for $8.50.

To me, most punk bands could barely play.... and the ones that could, like Fear and the Sex Pistols (Yes, Steve Jones can play the hell out of a guitar) were the ones that I liked. The Jam could Play and the Clash could play, but to me those bands were really more "New Wave" than actual Punk... they were like goody-two-shoes kinds of bands.

[Consume]

 

Originally Posted by Anderton

But you have to admit, "Livin' on a Prayer" has the ultimate 80s hair band chorus of all time.

 

Desmond Child strikes again. The guy has written some of the greatest Anthems/Sing-along types of songs out there. He wrote half the hits any of those bands had during the 80's. One of my favorite songwriters.

[girevik]

 

Originally Posted by philbo

I guess I missed this big schism between punk and metal you're talking about in the OP. Who won the war?

 

Punk and metal hooked up and had a baby called "hardcore"

[Folder]

 

Originally Posted by philbo

I guess I missed this big schism between punk and metal you're talking about in the OP. Who won the war?

 

Well a lot of people would argue that punk/new wave won.

There's a documentary called "1991 The year punk broke"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991:_The_Year_Punk_Broke

1991 was the year that Nirvana's Nevermind album came out.

By 1992 the whole spandex and pointy guitar, hair metal stuff looked pretty silly.

Alternative radio stations started popping up all over the country in the 90's and a lot of the underground bands of the 80's became mainstream.

[blue2blue]

 

Originally Posted by Folder

Like I said in an earlier post I would personally consider Guns and Roses hard rock not heavy metal and I understand that a lot of people thought that Motorhead was more punk than metal but when I titled this thread I tried to think of "popular" bands that were along this "so called divide" between New Wave/Punk/Alternative vs Hard Rock/Heavy Metal or whatever. I think for some bands of that era the categories were pretty loose, especially as you get towards the end of the eighties when I think for some bands the two branches started to merge.

I think a lot of us on this forum may be a little too old to truly understand what my original post was asking, including myself. I was talking to a friend who's a few years younger than me about this thread and he was adamant that this divide was very real when he was in high school.

For me, I definately leaned towards the New Wave side and remember having disdain towards a lot of the metal stuff. I distinctly remember when the first Poison album came out and having discusions with my friends about how they had to be the absolute worst band in the history of rock and roll.

I asked in the original post why you were on one side or the other. Looking back all these years later I think there were a lot of reasons but two stand out for me.

For one, I think a lot of the new wave/punk stuff grooved better. We used to call it driving eighth bass. I now call it swing. The other thing for me was that I never liked the vocals in a lot of that eighties hard rock metal stuff which was very different than the blues based hard rock vocals of the 60's/70's.

I remember thinking Slash was an incredible guitar player but I just couldn't stand the sound of Axl Rose's voice.

 

Bands like Led Zeppelin and Motorhead helped establish heavy metal. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Led Zeppelin was the first band I heard referred to as heavy metal (by SF/LA 'underground' DJ legend B. Mitchell Reed) right around the time of their first release. But, of course, most folks these days will argue against including Zep and possibly Motorhead. But that's just rewriting a very real past to fit a shallow and illusory contemporary sensibility.