Members wanderoo222 Posted January 31, 2012 Members Share Posted January 31, 2012 Could I run it into the clean channel of another amp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted January 31, 2012 Members Share Posted January 31, 2012 That is exactly what it is for. Or you could run it into the dirty channel of another amp. ...or possibly run it into a bunch of effects and then another amp to play in stereo. ...you get the drift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kuz929 Posted January 31, 2012 Members Share Posted January 31, 2012 what are the benefits of that? having one amp feed into another... why not just go straight into the amp whose sound you like the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cortfan Posted January 31, 2012 Members Share Posted January 31, 2012 It can also go to a mixing board, or a P.A. system. That is a common benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wanderoo222 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2012 what are the benefits of that? having one amp feed into another... why not just go straight into the amp whose sound you like the best I'm considering the new Fender Super Champ x2 Head. I would run it thru the Mustang III I have until I purchased a suitable 1x12 cab. What are ur thoughts on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted January 31, 2012 Members Share Posted January 31, 2012 what are the benefits of that? having one amp feed into another... why not just go straight into the amp whose sound you like the best Because it sounds different with two amps rather than one? Maybe some people like that sound even more than just running through one amp? And of course, running effects through a different amp than the one that carries your main signal does widen the sound considerably. Options, possibilities... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted January 31, 2012 Members Share Posted January 31, 2012 I'm considering the new Fender Super Champ x2 Head. I would run it thru the Mustang III I have until I purchased a suitable 1x12 cab. What are ur thoughts on this? Try it? If it doesn't sound nice you can always just use the speaker from your mustang on its own until you get a cab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kuz929 Posted January 31, 2012 Members Share Posted January 31, 2012 I'm considering the new Fender Super Champ x2 Head. I would run it thru the Mustang III I have until I purchased a suitable 1x12 cab. What are ur thoughts on this? well that makes perfect sense. using one amp as the cab for another if you dont have a cab... but what I'm getting at is... why run one combo to the other? if you like what comes out of the other amp better, why even use that first amp in the first place? If you like the speaker better in one of them, why not just swap?? just seems like an unnecessary step Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wartoxin Posted January 31, 2012 Members Share Posted January 31, 2012 line outs vary a lot. They can suck for many reasons. On 2 amps that I used, they were controled by the amp's master volume, and were so quiet at any normal volume that they couldn't be used for anything pretty much. They also tend to sound bad with no speaker sim etc. Some are dedicated recording outs with speaker sim though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lz4005 Posted January 31, 2012 Members Share Posted January 31, 2012 what are the benefits of that? having one amp feed into another... why not just go straight into the amp whose sound you like the best Two amps are louder than one. Or you can put one on the other side of the stage and run each at half the volume so the sound isn't as directional. Or you can record the direct signal if you like how it sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted January 31, 2012 Members Share Posted January 31, 2012 It can also go to a mixing board, or a P.A. system. That is a common benefit. I completely forgot about that... ...and my own amp here at home is connected to my mixer via the line out Although, for that purpose, imo there should be some sort of speaker emulation on the line out - otherwise the sound coming from your clean mixer may not be what you'd expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wanderoo222 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2012 well that makes perfect sense. using one amp as the cab for another if you dont have a cab...but what I'm getting at is... why run one combo to the other? if you like what comes out of the other amp better, why even use that first amp in the first place? If you like the speaker better in one of them, why not just swap?? just seems like an unnecessary step It's a head , not a combo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wanderoo222 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2012 line outs vary a lot. They can suck for many reasons. On 2 amps that I used, they were controled by the amp's master volume, and were so quiet at any normal volume that they couldn't be used for anything pretty much. They also tend to sound bad with no speaker sim etc. Some are dedicated recording outs with speaker sim though. Is it possible to use the line out as a "headphone out" or run into one of those small berringer mixers for a headphone out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted January 31, 2012 Members Share Posted January 31, 2012 Is it possible to use the line out as a "headphone out" or run into one of those small berringer mixers for a headphone out? You can certainly run it into a small mixer - i have no idea wether the signal is good for headphones though. But remember, if there is no speaker simulation on the line out it will sound shrill, because actual guitar speakers remove pretty much all highs from the signal that by itself has loads of highs in it. On a mixer you might be able to tame the signal by turning down the highs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wanderoo222 Posted February 1, 2012 Author Members Share Posted February 1, 2012 Thanks everyone. This info really helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lawrz VanV Posted April 8, 2015 Members Share Posted April 8, 2015 I use it on my Champ XD to line out to a Tech 21 Power Engine. I then use my champ speaker as my monitor & the PE aimed out front. That makes my 15 watt Super Champ a 60 watt amp. If I need more I can daisy chain a 2nd PE from the 1st. Now I have a 120 watt Super Champ. I have both the combo & head units. If I use the Head model I use a DR. Z 1 x 12 as my main speaker/ monitor & then line out as described above. The PE basically take the sound of what ever it is you are using & duplicates it to the PE 1 x 12 cabs. I think you can daisy chain like,,, a lot of Power Engines. I have never used more than 2 so I'm not sure if there are problems when you get up to 3,4 or more. At that point I would think you would want a big old Marshall stack or something. Of course the positive is I can really amp a clean sound from the Champ & your ears will still bleed from the clean and I never have to take more than I need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Steve2112 Posted April 8, 2015 Members Share Posted April 8, 2015 I have a Mustang III combo with no speaker out (say to run it to an external cab?). Although the amp is rated at 100 watts....it's a VERY light 100. It's really more like 30-50 (at best) tube watt. So when I want more beef and bottom- I can use the "line out" to go to the input of my old Fender Twin. Suddenly it's a WAY different sound...yet with the flexibility of the Mustang, It actually functions like a preamp now. Cool thing about the mustang is I have that line out and can use the mustang master volume to control mustang volume. The line out is controlled by the other amp. I can run both or just one. The line out is not really meant for headphones nor PA/Mixer/recording without other processing like cab sim emulation. Most newer Marshall amps usually have a pretty decent emulated output for PA use. Hughes and Kettner amps have their original simulated line out to go direct to PA/recording. These outputs have fairly decent sound- although many still prefer a microphone in front of the amp. Rule of thumb is "line out" needs to go to another amp or more processing. Some amps (mesa) call this slave out. "Simulated" or "emulated" line out can go to the board or recording with minimal processing. Neither is made for headphones directly. Also- some amps have tricks like "boost" attached to their line in/out- but let' snot make it too complicated! Check their website for this feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted April 9, 2015 Members Share Posted April 9, 2015 Line outs were originally used for stacking many amps together in a master/slave configuration. The preamp of one head could be used to drive the power amp sections of other heads. The slave heads would only have their power amp sections being used and this way you only had to adjust the one head's preamp and all the changes you make to it would sound the same with all the other heads. You could split the inputs and run complete heads with different settings, but too many splits and the inputs become weaker and weaker with each division. You also have to jack with every amps settings to get a good tone and avoid phase issues created by the EQ settings. Making slaves of the power amps is what you see on most big stages where you have stacks of heads. Its similar to what you do with PA gear using a mixer to drive many power amps. The line outs of course have been used for anything that can be driven at line level. With a line out and line in you can add external gear between the preamp and power amp sections. Time based gear like echo and reverb sound much better with preamp distortion before those effects. If the amp only has a line out , it can be used to drive other amps or like someone said to feed a PA vs using a mic. You don't get the power amp coloration and saturation however and can sound overly harsh. EQing the signal and maybe using some compression can help. Some amps like Marshall and Vox have added line outs that occur after the power section. Its a speaker emulated line out that colors the tone like a speaker and mic does. A speaker rolls off frequencies above 5K and below 200 and a mic also colors the sound. Using a speaker emulated line out sounds allot more closer to a miced cab then the dry signal coming from a preamp. You can add a speaker emulated line out for a few dollars to just about any amp. I've done it on all my old fender amps that didn't have any extra outputs. It simply taps a small amount of voltage from the speaker jack and removes all the highs above 5K. Works pretty good too. You could even build it into an external box you place between the head and cab. We used to use the external boxes all the time back in the 70's before that started adding the line outs to amps as a stock option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bucksstudent Posted April 9, 2015 Members Share Posted April 9, 2015 Making slaves of the power amps is what you see on most big stages where you have stacks of heads./QUOTE] I don't know of any guitarist who actually uses multiple amps in lieu of a P.A. anymore. Guys like Zakk Wylde, Brian May, and almost anyone you can think of with a line of Marshalls or other brand (May = Vox) only have one that's on and miced. When Dimebag Darrell endorsed Krank, he had a Randall offstage that he used instead. The guys in Lacuna Coil have dummy Marshalls onstage and they have their Line 6 amps offstage. Now, many players do actually use multiple amps for different tones, but they're not all connected in this master/slave configuration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted April 9, 2015 Members Share Posted April 9, 2015 Making slaves of the power amps is what you see on most big stages where you have stacks of heads./QUOTE] I don't know of any guitarist who actually uses multiple amps in lieu of a P.A. anymore. Guys like Zakk Wylde, Brian May, and almost anyone you can think of with a line of Marshalls or other brand (May = Vox) only have one that's on and miced. When Dimebag Darrell endorsed Krank, he had a Randall offstage that he used instead. The guys in Lacuna Coil have dummy Marshalls onstage and they have their Line 6 amps offstage. Now, many players do actually use multiple amps for different tones, but they're not all connected in this master/slave configuration. I was talking big arena stuff of the past, but yes since smaller amps have become more powerful, mainly because of better speakers. The stage volumes are better too. When you're on a big stage like that its really hard to hear the guys on the other side of the stage and even a loud 100w stacks the sound is very small and directional in comparison to playing a club where you get wall reflection. A big stage is like playing outdoors. The sound passes by you and may come back of the far wall a second or two later. Good stage and In ear monitors have made a big difference too. Musicians don't need the big stacks of gear to hear themselves, but there are still plenty of bands doing it old school. I've seen dozens of big bands live using multi stacks. One of the advantages is you can use your time based effects between the master head and slaves. You cant get the same echo tones before a heads preamp if that preamp is providing overdrive, Putting multiple echo's in loops has a time sync problem, so running the master into the effects then distributing the output to many heads is still the best option if you want that big Van Halen type echo. Otherwise you have to run the echo after the mic (which is good too because the echo contains all the drive including the speaker and output transformer drive. I slave my bass heads together because I get better sound quality that way and its less hassle getting the second amp to match the first without weird resonances caused by the two amps different tone stacks. I do split my guitar signals and run both preamps however. Its a bit more difficult getting two unlike amps to sound similar for running stereo effects however. One may be producing more bass tones and the other more treble and that does effect one side of the stereo image. Luckily a guitar outputs a mono signal so that image is only pseudo stereo. Something like a ping pong echo can sound really weird if the amps aren't a match, but other then studio work there isn't any big reason to run stereo on stage. Linking inputs can cause some hum problems too. I have several older tube heads with lower impedances that don't like having their inputs linked to newer SS high impedances, even with grounded lifted. In those instances I have to use separate buffered signals to drive both and avoid problems. When you link inputs you are combining the impedance resistances. If they are matching heads, this cuts both in half and you're usually OK. If they are different impedances, you can actually have current flow from one amp to the other from the cable that links them causing an AC hum. I get this when I connect my Black face head to my newer SS heads. This is rarely dangerous unless you have a ground loop too, but it can cause hum problems. Inputs are no longer unidirectional taking a signal in when you link inputs. They become unidirectional feeds both taking a signal in and passing any additional voltages that may be present to the other head when inputs are linked. Like water seeking the lowest point of gravity, and voltage potential that's higher at one input can feed to the other and cause issues. Buffering the inputs via a stereo pedal works if the pedal has at least one output buffered from the other. This insures both amps inputs are unidirectional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Steve2112 Posted April 9, 2015 Members Share Posted April 9, 2015 Making slaves of the power amps is what you see on most big stages where you have stacks of heads./QUOTE] I don't know of any guitarist who actually uses multiple amps in lieu of a P.A. anymore. Guys like Zakk Wylde, Brian May, and almost anyone you can think of with a line of Marshalls or other brand (May = Vox) only have one that's on and miced. When Dimebag Darrell endorsed Krank, he had a Randall offstage that he used instead. The guys in Lacuna Coil have dummy Marshalls onstage and they have their Line 6 amps offstage. Now, many players do actually use multiple amps for different tones, but they're not all connected in this master/slave configuration. You're right that very few "slave" anymore...it's just a hold over- and make no mistake it's just a LINE OUT. I believe Mesa is one of the very few that has a designated "slave output". And as I said they talk about using it as a pseudo boost function too. (see their website if anyone needs more info on that) But YEP! lot's of people use multiple amps. Warren Haynes is one and he actually has (or had) real amplifiers set up for most of the other band to give them real guitar tone rather than monitor tone...lol talk about serious! Forgive WKRP... he's from a different epoch...and sometimes forgets to clarify. .png.197c47f720636f02390cc2b0a33804da.png' alt='smiley-veryhappy'> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Steve2112 Posted April 9, 2015 Members Share Posted April 9, 2015 You cant get the same echo tones before a heads preamp if that preamp is providing overdrive, Putting multiple echo's in loops has a time sync problem, so running the master into the effects then distributing the output to many heads is still the best option if you want that big Van Halen type echo. Otherwise you have to run the echo after the mic (which is good too because the echo contains all the drive including the speaker and output transformer drive. Just to clairfy- WKRP is talking about an FX LOOP here- also often called Line Out and Line In. Almost every amp has this feature- and even the 4-cable method is becoming well known and used. This allows you to maintain your amp's tone while your Multi FX MODELER- like a POD HD or Digitech RP500- EFFECTS go to the loop, and the modeler's amps and boosts can go to the front of the amp. Really cool if you like your amps distortion channels VERY VERSATILE. If you just have a Fender Twin just plug into the front- or Line In/power amp in. The 4 cable method maintains your amps true tone, while placing effects in the loop- and the versatility and ease of use a modeler provides. Again...very few use much PA effects (after the mic (like delay) in their guitars. Some pros will have their techs switch effects...but everyone likes to hear their sound on the stage. People like Steve Morse use a wet/dry setup...so left and right amps can have your effects and a center amp is your favorite dry amp no effects. SWEET! Of course this setup needs a sweet pa system too. This is all getting more and more complicated HUH! GREAT TOPIC! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted April 9, 2015 Members Share Posted April 9, 2015 Just to clairfy- WKRP is talking about an FX LOOP here- also often called Line Out and Line In. Almost every amp has this feature- and even the 4-cable method is becoming well known and used. This allows you to maintain your amp's tone while your Multi FX MODELER- like a POD HD or Digitech RP500- EFFECTS go to the loop, and the modeler's amps and boosts can go to the front of the amp. Really cool if you like your amps distortion channels VERY VERSATILE. If you just have a Fender Twin just plug into the front- or Line In/power amp in. The 4 cable method maintains your amps true tone, while placing effects in the loop- and the versatility and ease of use a modeler provides. Again...very few use much PA effects (after the mic (like delay) in their guitars. Some pros will have their techs switch effects...but everyone likes to hear their sound on the stage. People like Steve Morse use a wet/dry setup...so left and right amps can have your effects and a center amp is your favorite dry amp no effects. SWEET! Of course this setup needs a sweet pa system too. This is all getting more and more complicated HUH! GREAT TOPIC! Actually I was just running through the history of the line outs since they were made available on amps. You rarely find them on 60's amps. PA's were lame at best back then and there were few effects boxes to loop. The Ampeg and Sunn amps of the 70's were what first popped in my mind. They had line in and out jacks to make a head a master or a slave and actually called then extension jacks. The outs could also be used for direct recording. When you pluggied into the line input however it disabled the preamp and ran onlt the power amp and when you plugged into the preamp out it disabled the power amp so you couldn't use both as an effects loop without modifying the wiring (which I did many times as an electronic tech doing amp repairs). By the late 70's companies like Sunn did start adding line ins and outs that could be used as loops too. You still only found these in the bigger high wattage heads where this feature was used for stacking heads. Its only been in the last 20 years of so since you've seen them in smaller combos. Before that you'd have to mod most combos with an effects loop. You find them on most guitar amps now and bass heads. Bass combos with effects loops are still hard to find because bassists don't utilize allot of effects so manufacturers save money by not including them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bucksstudent Posted April 9, 2015 Members Share Posted April 9, 2015 I was talking big arena stuff of the past I know. That's what I was responding to. It's a thing of the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chordite Posted April 9, 2015 Members Share Posted April 9, 2015 It's to run to PA system in the garden in case the neighbors can't hear you practice Smoke on the Water from your bedroom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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