Live Music: the main deal now?

[Volitan]

I think selling albums is still a good means of making dough, if you shift the main priority to selling your "album" on iTunes or something. The internet has basically ruined the music industry in the sense that no one buys CD's or anything anymore. Ripping/file sharing needs to be taken care of. I don't know why major labels don't do anytihng about it.

 

How contemporary bands like, say, Fall Out Boy, or Daughtry or anybody these days can make any money. I just can't see people going out to buy CD's when it's available right away on any P2P thing. For someone who wants to make music their career, it's {censored}ing scary.

[BlueStrat]

 

I would add just one thing. WE not only enjoy music, we also enjoy creating it. Which is why I think it is odd that people get paid so much to do it.

 

 

I'm a finish carpenter by trade, and I really enjoy building staircases and fireplace mantels. Does that mean I should do it for free?

 

People pay me a lot of money to do what I do, and I don't feel a bit guilty The fact that I enjoy doing something I'm good at that people are willing to pay for is an added bonus.

 

I had a doctor once complain because I billed him 550 dollars for a six hour job (the irony didn't escape me!). I told him that I spent 25 years learning to do what I do skillfully and efficiently, and amassing the tools to do it, and that he wasn't paying me for what I do, he was paying me for what I know. That ended the discussion.

 

Incidentally, I've done two more jobs for him.

[RobRoy]

 

I'm a finish carpenter by trade, and I really enjoy building staircases and fireplace mantels. Does that mean I should do it for free? People pay me a lot of money to do what I do, and I don't feel a bit guilty The fact that I enjoy doing something I'm good at that people are willing to pay for is an added bonus. I had a doctor once complain because I billed him 550 dollars for a six hour job (the irony didn't escape me!). I told him that I spent 25 years learning to do what I do skillfully and efficiently, and amassing the tools to do it, and that he wasn't paying me for what I do, he was paying me for what I know . That ended the discussion. Incidentally, I've done two more jobs for him.

 

The old joke - a mans furnace was on the fritz and he called the repairman to come to his home to fix it. They guy drove out, pulled the cover off, looked it over and made a small adjustment on a screw. He then handed the guy a bill for $94. The guy said, where did you come up with such a high amount. The repairman said "$4 for driving out here and $90 for knowing which screw to adjust".

 

But regarding your getting paid to do finish carpentry, if it was a common human condition to enjoy doing it as a hobby, and there was no shortage of hobbyists that did it really well, you'd have to find another occupation becuase you wouldn't make any money at it.

[GlennGalen]

 

if...there was no shortage of hobbyists that did it really well, you'd have to find another occupation because you wouldn't make any money at it.

 

 

I think there is a shortage of songwriters, and of musicians that do it really well in a live performance. Particularly among hobby players.

 

I know that the recordings I produce in the studio, with as many takes as needed, and complete vocal composites from many takes, sound better than I can do live...but I do keep improving, with effort.

[BlueStrat]

But regarding your getting paid to do finish carpentry, if it was a common human condition to enjoy doing it as a hobby, and there was no shortage of hobbyists that did it really well, you'd have to find another occupation becuase you wouldn't make any money at it.

 

Au contrere, mon frere.

 

There are hundreds of thousands of hobbyist woodworkers, carpenters and finish guys. What do you think keeps Lowe's and Home Depot in business?

 

There just aren't that many good ones. I've followed a lot of them and redid their work!

[Synonym Music]

Sure, but that wasn't my point in the context. I was talking about being able to play the song excellently "in one take", on stage for a live audience.

 

...And you can do exactly that with MIDI. Sure it allows ease of use when you DO want to correct, but it's also a very important tool when you want drive differenct devices from one intrument. I still find quite a few people recording audio from a softsynth while playing from a MIDI keyboard. Even if they don't get it right, they're on stage... They can't go back in time.

 

That said, there are also quantize-on-record options with many sequencers. Out of the studio I think that bit of help is a little scary.

[GlennGalen]

 

...And you can do exactly that with MIDI. Sure it allows ease of use when you DO want to correct, but it's also a very important tool when you want drive differenct devices from one intrument. I still find quite a few people recording audio from a softsynth while playing from a MIDI keyboard. Even if they don't get it right, they're on stage... They can't go back in time.

 

 

SYN,

 

Did you think I meant that you couldn't use midi in a live performance?

 

Sure you can. I agree.

 

The original point was that playing live requires you to do it in one take, but in a recording you can use midi to play things slower and then speed it up, or step record, etc.

 

I was talking about recordings vs live music. And I meant using midi in the studio to create music that you couldn't play live.

[RobRoy]

Au contrere, mon frere. There are hundreds of thousands of hobbyist woodworkers, carpenters and finish guys. What do you think keeps Lowe's and Home Depot in business? There just aren't that many good ones. I've followed a lot of them and redid their work!

Point taken - and quite valid.

[Chris Guitar]

Wow, I've thought about all this before too. I think your right on in assuming all that. Hey, I have no problem with it, I want to play live anyways. Now we'll see who can actually play and who just hides behind the studio in their bedroom. Not that that's bad to do, if it sounds good, I dont care how you made it. But yeah, I'm looking forward to where this is all heading. We are just about to start working on an album so,..........I guess we better get it done and sold before the problem gets worse. And maybe it's not a problem. It might be just what we all need to get back to more real music.

[flutegirl]

Sure you can use midi in live performance - in mp3 format - as in Backing tracks. I do it all the time. This is where I see music going - a return to the parlour music of the 19th Century...or like Karaoke.

I know 'real' musicians poo poo that, but honestly I don't know why? When I play the Telemann Flute Concerto in Bb - honestly, it's just as hard as playing with a piano accompanist (done both). Actually it's harder than with a live person because you can't screw up and have someone cover for you. You come in early, or late, you are screwed!!!

As far as the 'human' element - 'the moment' all that - well I do write expression into the backing music and adjust it, it's just I do it over time.

I think basically people are snobby. Mac is better, playing live is better, pre-synthesizer music is better... the list is endless.

But, I see this as the wave of the future. Just as people like 'dance dance revolution' - actually being involved in the activity is way more fun than being a passive listener/viewer. Dances are way more fun that concerts...and playing music is way more fun than listening.

And, the best part - this will require even more musicians. Songwriters, sound engineers, performers, teachers... but, it will leave the record industry out in the cold - and that's why they are really upset and try and convince musicians that we should feel concern for those bastards!

[Synonym Music]

 

SYN, Did you think I meant that you couldn't use midi in a live performance? Sure you can. I agree. The original point was that playing live requires you to do it in one take, but in a recording you can use midi to play things slower and then speed it up, or step record, etc. I was talking about recordings vs live music. And I meant using midi in the studio to create music that you couldn't play live.

 

 

I see. For music that is not intended for live performance (and there is definitely a sector) I don't think this is a problem. When it is meant to go live... You think of a reasonable rearrangement. I've seen an act that was heavy on MIDI throughout the record and still reproduced very similar results live. She also recorded synth parts as audio instead of sequencing everything. It helps to be a good pianist in that respect I suppose.

 

I don't have any problem with MIDI recording and never have because it can be transferred quickly between parts. If I want to play a piece in one DAW and record it as MIDI, I can save that and open it up in another instrument in an entirely different DAW rather than doing several takes over and over. Doing the same thing repetitively is not a gauge for talent or skill.

 

You can make MIDI as inflexible as audio if you want, it's just that there are few advantages when using it in a one-take approach. It's still necessary when you want to use controllers and not a crutch in those situations.

[BlueStrat]

 

 

Hold up there, sis. You don't have to yell. None of us are blind.

[Synonym Music]

In a recording you can do things over to your heart's - or more likely budget's - content. MIDI is not directly related to that; it is simply an interface that communicates controller values between instruments.

 

There is a certain very robotic and quantized feel to quite a bit of electronic music, and that is created through use of sequencing. DJs spin those types of records. There is no live performance. But then again, it's usually just a single off an LP or 12", not an album. Once it's been spun, it's old. The remixer met their quota of filling the dancefloor for one night....... End of story, on to the next song! It's definitely a fast food mentality just as in pop, if not to a far greater extent.

 

Even creating this type of stock single comes with a very steep learning curve of several years. These songs are crafted at the hands of "producers" rather than musicians.

[flutegirl]

Oh, sorry my giant type came out as yelling (I thought that was caps) - but anyway, I play with text size because I find reading this small type kind of difficult. However, I will keep my text small, as I'm not a yelling kind of thing.

Peace

[RobRoy]

 

Wow, I've thought about all this before too. I think your right on in assuming all that. Hey, I have no problem with it, I want to play live anyways. Now we'll see who can actually play and who just hides behind the studio in their bedroom. Not that that's bad to do, if it sounds good, I dont care how you made it. But yeah, I'm looking forward to where this is all heading. We are just about to start working on an album so,..........I guess we better get it done and sold before the problem gets worse. And maybe it's not a problem. It might be just what we all need to get back to more real music.

 

 

One of my friends put together a band recently. He has a GREAT web site and some really incredible studio recordings of his new band. I went to see them live for the first time a couple of weeks ago. They SUCKED - on several levels. It is amazing what you can do with a good recording studio and enough takes.

[RobRoy]

 

Sure you can use midi in live performance

 

A agree with that - to a degree. I have seen bands blend it in beautifully. Just as a little fill in flash can really make some photographs come alive. In fact, I think that is a great analogy to make the point.

[daddymack]

One of my friends put together a band recently. He has a GREAT web site and some really incredible studio recordings of his new band. I went to see them live for the first time a couple of weeks ago. They SUCKED - on several levels. It is amazing what you can do with a good recording studio and enough takes.

 

 

I have long held the opinion that one should not do things in the studio that you can't replicate, or at least approximate, live.

[RobRoy]

I have long held the opinion that one should not do things in the studio that you can't replicate, or at least approximate, live.

 

It was quite remarkable. The key to my post was the phrase "on several levels". There are a couple of REALLY good musicians in the band, but as a group, in a live venue, many things were wrong - from song starts and stops to volume settings, to quality of vocals, to the general coordination of all band members on stage. It was very rough. I was actually pretty embarrassed for them. I felt bad.

[daddymack]

It was quite remarkable. The key to my post was the phrase "on several levels". There are a couple of REALLY good musicians in the band, but as a group, in a live venue, many things were wrong - from song starts and stops to volume settings, to quality of vocals, to the general coordination of all band members on stage. It was very rough. I was actually pretty embarrassed for them. I felt bad.

 

Most of what you are pointing out, though, has more to do with rehearsal and preparation than studio wizardry. I would have to say that this band was not ready to gig...and if they didn't realize that, they won't last long...

[RobRoy]

Most of what you are pointing out, though, has more to do with rehearsal and preparation than studio wizardry. I would have to say that this band was not ready to gig...and if they didn't realize that, they won't last long...

 

 

Well a couple of them also are not very good, but basically I agree with you.

[Outkaster]

I have long held the opinion that one should not do things in the studio that you can't replicate, or at least approximate, live.

 

Exactly

[Kuhnfyoozed]

^^ Thats what I keep in mind while writing my songs. Most of the time. Or, if I'm doing something that is studio-possible but not preformance-possible, I keep an alternate arrangement in my head (and often write it down as a separate piece).

[jonnythesaint]

this should be good for my band because we sound 10 times better live, of course, I have been the only one to record us and it still hasn't captured that live feeling or sound.

 

plus I would certainly hate recording something and not being able to reproduce it live.

 

--seperate note-recently went with my gf [i know I know] to see Maroon 5 live--they were great, they can literally rock on soo many levels---to think I used to blindly hate them but they really got the crowd moving--pretty decent musicianship too.

[davis1]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but all you people seem to be worrying about is the disappearance of the rock scene, more specifically, the live guitar playing scene. There's a world of instruments and genres of music out there, if you're willing to play for crowds that aren't teenagers.

[BlueStrat]

 

to see Maroon 5 live--they were great, they can literally rock on soo many levels---to think I used to blindly hate them but they really got the crowd moving--pretty decent musicianship too.

 

 

 

I don't know, there are differing schools of thought on this.

 

I tend to look at recording not as a replication of a live performance, but as a performance medium all in itself. It's the difference between watercolors and oil paintings to me. I like to hear bands pull off great sonic tapestries on records, but then do something with considerably different arrangements live, at least on some of their songs.

 

That was always my biggest knock on the Eagles. What's the point in shelling out 80 bucks apiece for tickets to see someone live sound exactly like the CD I paid 14 bucks for?