reading a book.....tremendously depressed. have you read this?

[gubu]

 

Can you elaborate on this? Is everyone who is "business-oriented" an asshole in your world? Seems to me the successful bands teamed up with business types to help make them successful. Aiming low, or satisfied to have a day job or working wife? Shouldn't the aim be to at least make a decent living with benefits?

 

 

A decent living? With Benefits? From music?

 

Wha?

 

As I said in my original post - of all of us who decide to give our lives to music, very few actually make enough to, say, buy a house. I'm a jobbing engineer/musician and with my partner working part time as well, we're still renting and will be for a few years yet. I'd love to 'hit' with something and be a bit more secure financially but I'm also happy that I'm pretty much my own boss and don't have to put up with office politics and the tediousness of 9-5.

 

Regarding business oriented assholes - the OP was referring to the type of greed and avarice that goes on within the 'biz'. There are plenty of spivs with no real interest in music or the type of lifestyle it takes to be a successful creative person who are working at very high levels in the industry. They don't give a damn for the 'talent', only about their own bottom line and my advice to the OP was to let those boys go after the easy meat and to look after his own house. If you have the brains to play 'Louie louie', you have the brains to arrange your own copyrighting, agency registration etc. and you definitely have the brains to hire a lawyer to make sure any publishing deals you sign are not gonna screw you up the ass.

I know a few musos who took pitiful weekly wages from managers on 6 month tours with promises of bigger things to come and when the tour was over, it was a case of 'good luck and thanks.' The only person making money there were the managers and it put one of the boys out of playing altogether for 4 years. Why bother.... You are better off sailing your own ship. If you can get gigs and get some recordings out there, you WILL find the level you are supposed to be at.

[aliensporebomb]

 

The first time I did the Seattle to Portland 200 mile bike ride, the last two miles were the hardest. And they were FLAT. It was purely phychological. People fear success. Once a toddler learns to use a toilet, the diaper is going away very soon. With success comes responsitility. People seem to sense that like animals sense coming earthquakes.

 

 

First time I did a "century ride" I remember the panic set-in around mile 98, I knew I was going to finish but at that point I realized any potential I had was possibly limitless if I could do that and THAT raises the bar for a lot of things. It means I'd then have to step up everything about my life, career, everything. It meant a lot of artificial limitations I'd imposed on myself were bunk.

 

For my own purposes, I played guitar in a series of completely unheralded bands in the Minneapolis area, playing all but forgotten gigs and learning the process of recording, learning different instruments and writing songs. But I'd long since established a day job in the IT world so I could so exactly what I wanted musically and played the odd gig to keep my feet wet so to speak.

 

Artistically I was happy but I never really entertained any kind of success similar to the Kelly Clarksons of the world. Not that I really wanted that. But my aim wasn't to be a hugely successful star, it was to make some kind of musical statement over time. I'm 46 now. Not doing much live gigs these days but my "little studio that could" is used for a variety of projects in addition to my music. Keeps me out of trouble.

[startingaband88]

gigmaster,

 

what do you mean "union"? explain.

 

thanks for the different perspective, btw.

 

oh wow i just realized the posts are so oooold

[Scafeets]

oh wow i just realized the posts are so oooold

 

That's OK...this thread refuses to die.

 

What Gigmaster was talking about is the Musician's Union (AFM in the US and Canada). If you aspire to being a pro like him, you need to play and read well, join the union, buy a tux and play whatever they pay you to play. It can be a rewarding way of life -- but it's only one path for the pro musician.

[daddymack]

That's OK...this thread refuses to die.

It will die when I allow it to...

the curse of the 'sticky'...

[FallenGuitarist]

This is a very interesting topic and full of good ideas and advice...I will try to add to it...I am 40...my bandmates are mid-20 to 30..I have an MBA degree...own my own business and a guitarist. Started playing when I was 6...did 4yrs of classical study at the University level etc...did some wedding/nice restaurant gigs...got frustrated with trying to make a living as a musician...took a 7 yr break from the instrument. 2003...friend asks me to dust off the skills and record guitars on his metal album...taught me to play for enjoyment and let things happen. 2004...founded my own band,,,struggled for a few years to find dedicated people...good musicians etc. 2007...enter myspace music contest and win. Do our first soundtrack....asked to submit song for second movie...be out later this year and is a big deal 55mil budget....currently working on our CD to coincide with movie release and distributorship set up with BestBuy. We are not a signed band.

 

Advice part: Don't suck on your instrument and don't play with ANY weak members in the band....you know in your mind if your good enough and what you have to do to get better...don't like playing for at least an hour or two every day to get better???....you need to do something else....I've played my whole life...but I love practicing and am always trying to learn new things...that's what's great about being a musician..your never going to learn it all!!!!

 

Get real-world feedback on the quality of your material...we use garageband to test out songs for reviewers around the world...both of our songs for the said movie stuff have gone top 20 out of 7500 plus entrys...the other 20 or so tested out..did average or above average...but not really really good....keep tweaking and taking to heart the advice given...hook not good enough...bridge is not working...singer needs to do this or that etc..if you have 10-20 people telling you something is not working...then time to re-write it....I've given many people and bands this advice...they tried it out...get flamed or get 1 star on their song...in denial and say...that's bs etc...of course they don't have much of a chance with that attitude.

 

The way we sound on CD...is the way we sound live....many bands do not and people get upset and don't like/want to see you play anymore....I'm one of them.

 

Have realistic expectations...we all know it's a tough biz and have other "jobs" and interests....but if something bigger was to happen...that's great.

 

Hope this may of helped.

 

Peace.

[db3]

very wise words from bluesstrat[love your quote about being beer salesman].have some ?s for you .was approuched by an up and comming comedy act that wants to put a small band together for a nation tour. Classic rock,some Frank Sanatra,chi-lites,Joe cocker etc.Have 2 national sponsers 1 for tour and 1 for tour bus.Scheduled for 34 citys to start.meals,hotels paid.looking for keyboard player,guitar player.We will be like paul Shaffer to his david letterman kind of longe act. Now the questions,in your past experience does this sound like fun or what? Have played for many years and did the nightmare of traveling and seen what good and bad can come of that,But with sponsers for tour and bus half the trouble seems taking care of. does this sound reasonable? Please need advice.thanks db

[infinite16]

Do not be discouraged. I am young and have a baby boy, so I know where you are. But life and love rule everything. Do not let some producer with his infinite wisdom strike fear into your eyes. Fact: The music industry is as shady as anything on the planet. They use the artist very malevolently. I think every musicians wish is to win the lottery and then just start their own label and tour the world as their own entity. Why do you think all the real artists tend to start their own labels once they are rich enough? Because they know the industry is bull crap.

 

I always look at it this way so as not to set my self up for disappointment if I do not "make it."

 

In a balanced, peaceful world, musicians would not be talented. We would just be who we be. You are only an entertainer because the robots on this planet are conditioned to drule over anything that takes their minds away from the horrors of actually existing on this planet today. i.e. jobs, money, societal pressure In that regards, I am so happy that I can bring joy to the minds of these beings. But knowing that it all really doesn't mean anything, helps to squash fear and let you live. Music industry or not, you have a family and so do I. It's called the human race. Do what you can to help them and everything will be fine.

[acluett89]

I've read your book,"Million dollar mistakes",and I think it's great.There's some great advice in there that I'm following.I love the story about Meredith and Geza X.

Best of luck!

[bluesway]

It will die when I allow it to... the curse of the 'sticky'...

 

i'm honored.

[MLCcoach]

I've been reading these posts, and it sounds to me like a lot of these people have been reading too many "How to Make it In Music" books. I am a full-time pro musician, and I've been one all my life, except for the few years I was drafted into the Marines. I have raised 7 children and put 3 of them through college and 1 through the Police Academy playing music. I've never had to have a day job. I am 50 now, and I gig more now than ever. So it can be done. Being a musician is not any worse than being a truck driver would be. I've always been Union, and I have good Insurance and a Retirement Plan. I don't know what anyone else considers "making it", but I have it made, no matter what anyone says. Of course, I have never tried to be a star, or famous. Just a working musician. That's all I ever wanted to be. I've never been 'signed', nor have I ever wanted to be. I know a lot of 'famous' people who are in debt up to their eyeballs. I don't owe anybody anything, other than normal bills. I don't even have to look for work. I get called all the time to fill-in on tours, and recording sessions (I hate recording. I like live gigs)for National Acts (famous people who pay me). I get hired strictly off of my reputation, because for the last 30+ years, I have always showed up on-time, sober, did my job, and went home. In the meantime, I play by myself all over the country, and I am employed by Carnival Cruiselines and spend 6 months of every year playing on a ship between Fla., and the Bahamas. And I have benefits with them as well. I've been with them so long that they even allow my wife to go with me on the cruises, now. As far as I know, she's not complaining. Never has. My kids have never complained, and always love to tell people what their daddy does for a living. You can make it in music. And by 'making it', I don't mean being a star, but just earning a good living. I am not rich, but I have always been comfortable, and seldom in financial trouble. I own several good vehicles and live in a nice house, in a good environment. What more could you ask for? Now, at times I have had to 'hire out' as a bass player on tour for bands who play music I don't like, and I can't tell you how many times I've had to play seasons with symphony orchestras to pay mortgages, but that's all part of the game. You do what you have to do. Here's what you do. 1. Talk it over with your spouse. Without support, it aint gonna happen. In my case, I was already a musician when she met me, so she had no room to complain. She knew going in what she was getting. 2. Join the Union 3. Don't 'throw-in' with bands. Just 'hire-in', and if they turn out to be jerks, go somewhere else and work. You'll have to build a reputation for reliability to stay working steady. Make sure all the agents, Union, and booking people know who you are, and that you are 'independent'. 4. Play on your own as much as possible. Build a reputation for reliablility, sobriety, and professionalism. 5. Don't ever pay anyone for anything music related (except normal stuff, like buying equipment, and personal stuff). The idea is to make money, not spend it. Agents get their cut from your jobs, not your wallet. Don't play for free, or 'for the door'. When you do these things, not only do you screw yourself, but every other musician that tries to play there after you. Charge a set fee. If they make more at the door, then they should be happy. If not, it's their business risk, not yours. There are a thousand other tips, and I could write books on it as well, but I am too busy working to write. When someone gives the 'gloom-and-doom' stories about the music business, find out what burger place or assembly line they work on. Ask them if they own a Tuxedo. If not, then they are not much of a pro musician. A Tuxedo is a major requirement for good gigs. If you want the real story, listen to those of us who are making a successful living at it. Most of the bad stuff is associated with the recording industry, which is why I stay away from them as much as possible. The rest is usually crooked agents, but I only work through established, legitimate, Union-appoved, agents, so I seldom get shafted. There's too much on this subject to post here. If I can be of any help to you, feel free to PM me. Keep on giggin!

 

In preparation for an interview on a San Francisco area NPR show (see www.martynemko.com), I was gathering information from many sources including musician forums on the multiple tasks including accompanist, side man, private instructor, product specialist, programmer and other special career categories (see www.musicianslifecoach.com) that an individual full time musician combines into his career to earn a living in the music industry. I was also interested in information about salaries or fees- hourly, weekly or yearly. The interview was March 14 and went well (martynemko.com) and out of all the forums, topics and threads that I read, Gigmaster's had the most to say about earning a living as a music. Gigmaster- Thank you!

[Plain Vanilla]

has anyone read moses avalon's "million dollar mistakes" about the cesspool that is the music industry? (he wrote another one before it called "confessions of a music producer" or something like that. i didn't read it, but i heard it was good.) it's brilliantly written. and what he's trying to do is steer you clear of the {censored} in the business, but the effect it is having on me is simply instilling fear and maybe a shot of not-so-appreciated-or-needed reality. part of being a musician is continuing and persevering and i'm getting discouraged. here's my deal: i'm pretty much at a crossroads; i'm 29 years old - thirty in the fall. i have a wife and kid, so my professional music goals had to take a bit of a back burner to parenting/husbandry....and that's cool. but now my son's almost 6 and doesn't need the 'babying' that he needed before and i'm just about to release a pretty serious songwriter/jazzy disk in the summer.........but this is a pretty ageist business....and i'm coming up on the age where it's not doing for a guy like me, you know? reading this book is getting really difficult for me. has anyone gone through this? dealt with it? i'd love any help or ideas you have. really.

I collect biography's of famous "rock stars" and other non fiction. I think the time to make money as an artist has passed, except for the very rare exception. It's too much fun. Too many people do it just for fun.

[Ernest Buckley]

 

I've been reading these posts, and it sounds to me like a lot of these people have been reading too many "How to Make it In Music" books. I am a full-time pro musician, and I've been one all my life, except for the few years I was drafted into the Marines. I have raised 7 children and put 3 of them through college and 1 through the Police Academy playing music. I've never had to have a day job. I am 50 now, and I gig more now than ever. So it can be done. Being a musician is not any worse than being a truck driver would be. I've always been Union, and I have good Insurance and a Retirement Plan. I don't know what anyone else considers "making it", but I have it made, no matter what anyone says. Of course, I have never tried to be a star, or famous. Just a working musician. That's all I ever wanted to be. I've never been 'signed', nor have I ever wanted to be. I know a lot of 'famous' people who are in debt up to their eyeballs. I don't owe anybody anything, other than normal bills. I don't even have to look for work. I get called all the time to fill-in on tours, and recording sessions (I hate recording. I like live gigs)for National Acts (famous people who pay me). I get hired strictly off of my reputation, because for the last 30+ years, I have always showed up on-time, sober, did my job, and went home. In the meantime, I play by myself all over the country, and I am employed by Carnival Cruiselines and spend 6 months of every year playing on a ship between Fla., and the Bahamas. And I have benefits with them as well. I've been with them so long that they even allow my wife to go with me on the cruises, now. As far as I know, she's not complaining. Never has. My kids have never complained, and always love to tell people what their daddy does for a living. You can make it in music. And by 'making it', I don't mean being a star, but just earning a good living. I am not rich, but I have always been comfortable, and seldom in financial trouble. I own several good vehicles and live in a nice house, in a good environment. What more could you ask for? Now, at times I have had to 'hire out' as a bass player on tour for bands who play music I don't like, and I can't tell you how many times I've had to play seasons with symphony orchestras to pay mortgages, but that's all part of the game. You do what you have to do. Here's what you do. 1. Talk it over with your spouse. Without support, it aint gonna happen. In my case, I was already a musician when she met me, so she had no room to complain. She knew going in what she was getting. 2. Join the Union 3. Don't 'throw-in' with bands. Just 'hire-in', and if they turn out to be jerks, go somewhere else and work. You'll have to build a reputation for reliability to stay working steady. Make sure all the agents, Union, and booking people know who you are, and that you are 'independent'. 4. Play on your own as much as possible. Build a reputation for reliablility, sobriety, and professionalism. 5. Don't ever pay anyone for anything music related (except normal stuff, like buying equipment, and personal stuff). The idea is to make money, not spend it. Agents get their cut from your jobs, not your wallet. Don't play for free, or 'for the door'. When you do these things, not only do you screw yourself, but every other musician that tries to play there after you. Charge a set fee. If they make more at the door, then they should be happy. If not, it's their business risk, not yours. There are a thousand other tips, and I could write books on it as well, but I am too busy working to write. When someone gives the 'gloom-and-doom' stories about the music business, find out what burger place or assembly line they work on. Ask them if they own a Tuxedo. If not, then they are not much of a pro musician. A Tuxedo is a major requirement for good gigs. If you want the real story, listen to those of us who are making a successful living at it. Most of the bad stuff is associated with the recording industry, which is why I stay away from them as much as possible. The rest is usually crooked agents, but I only work through established, legitimate, Union-appoved, agents, so I seldom get shafted. There's too much on this subject to post here. If I can be of any help to you, feel free to PM me. Keep on giggin!

 

 

Wow, can`t believe I`ve never seen this thread before... then again, I hardly leave Craigs forum above.

 

However, this is a great post by GigMaster. Unfortunately, most people who make music do not see it as a business. The Original Poster is or was looking for stardom. If thats the reason you got into music, then you are setting yourself up for disappointment. GigMaster has the right attitude. Its not about getting rich but you can make a living making music.

 

The only thing I would add to his post is to have a balanced personality. He sort of hinted at this when he wrote, "I have always showed up on-time, sober, did my job, and went home."

 

Basically, he wasn`t an a--. Lots of times I deal with people who are anything but professional. They show up just when the gig is starting, and act like they are doing you a favor. That attitude of entitlement.... just doesn`t work. No one owes you anything.

 

If you approach your work with the attitude, How May I Serve? you will see results. Making music is above all else an exchange of energy, if the energy you put into the music is negative, thats what you will reap. Sow peace and love into your music and enjoy it. You will be surprised... pleasantly.

[pauley13]

This post is so typical of what virtually all independent artists go through. There are multiple reasons why they fail in fulfilling their dreams. You may think it's insufficient talent or being in the wrong place at the wrong time, bad luck, "the world is against us" and things along those lines. But the truth is more prosaic than that. While we can all agree that quality of work is a given - it must be "good" - that's only a fractional part of what is needed to succeed.

 

The #1 key is PERSEVERANCE. Another #1 key (lol - I know - there's unfortunately many #1 keys) is having A PLAN and executing it consistently. Another #1 is acquiring KNOWLEDGE. One more: LOVING what you do NO MATTER WHAT.

 

There's more keys but these four will transform your life to the point where luck becomes a manageable factor.

 

Don't blame anyone for your failures. If you educate yourself, devise a plan and stick to it (perseverance!) - you will move ahead of 99.5% of all your competitors. Your odds will no longer be 1 in a billion, but more liike 1 in 10,000.

 

Don't fall for myths. And then don't misinterpret/misapply those myths. One such myth "it's an industry that favors young people." It this false? Yes, if you think about producers or sonwriters. No, if you think of teeny-bop pop stars. Do you consider yourself a teenybopper? If you do, but you happen to be a 35-year-old male, then you're in for a disappointment.

 

One of my closest friends waited until he was 55 before he became one of the hottest songwriters on the planet (for a while), transforming his fortune from barely living to a multi-million-dollar catalog - within less than 1 year.

 

Another friend started when he was 15, his mom and dad were famous personalities in the US and beyond, and yet he struggled to make it until he hit about 29, by which time he became a global superstar.

 

Personally, I had my music placed in a venue of a rather global importance, simply by following a disciplined routine (in those days it was physically mailing CDs to all likely places that might be interested). Prior to that I wasted years "trying" (or rather "believing" that I was). Once I devised a simple plan and STUCK TO IT, by the time I was in my mid-30s I had my first taste of reaping what I sowed - in a good way, for a change.

 

Today, with the Internet at your fingertips, you can educate yourself in RECORD time. Your only risk is information overload. But you can combat that by studying everything, taking notes and picking your best information sources. It will be your LOVE of what you're doing that will supply the needed energy to manage all this. And it's thanks to that LOVE that you'll succeed even if you don't achieve the material wealth you'd like.

 

This said, that too is within your reach, using the same keys. It's not "easy" of course. But if you have a plan and all the other keys, it is very much doable. Good luck!!

 

xx paul

[Scafeets]

 

The band was actually embarrassed by some of the stuff Gabrial did. Especially when he came out in that red dress with a fox head on. But the press talked about it. All press is good.

 

 

"All press is good" is the biggest myth in the entertainment business. Bad press is bad for an artist's image - period.

[Next Direct]

"All press is good" is the biggest myth in the entertainment business. Bad press is bad for an artist's image - period.

 

I think Tiger Woods would also agree with this.

 

If people know you, but don't respect you, then you can't really turn that bad press around can you? I mean, you're kinda screwed and if it's really bad press, it might turn up on one of those TV shows where they look back at embarassing moments.

[wert]

get divorce ,wife gets welfare ,you can pursue dream and yer kid can have food,shelter clothing ,been done lots of times .

[kirbutashi]

Whenever I feel like adding some gas to the tank, I read this book. It does a great job of capturing the dark ugly mess we call the music industry. This is a great book for anyone thinking of joining the industry and provides real life examples of pitfalls that other artists have endured over time.5 stars!

[colonelrobert]

This is the best response I've read on this post. There is a lot of meat on them bones.

In my experience, the bottom line comes down to this...

With skill, the gift, money, hard work and a little luck you can turn your passion into a career.

The question here is what are you willing to sacrifice for that. And you better believe you will sacrifice a lot.

A couple of questions to ask yourself, (not to be answered here) How much does your wife share your dreams? Is she willing to go through a life/family changing experience with you.

 

Best of luck to you......

[Ralph onion]

Dirty sticky business, I know. The best bands never make it. Luck as one poster said has alot to do with "making it." Create an image and sell the image.

[Consume]

have you read moses avalon yet? you should.....just because it's worth learning about. it's an emotionally difficult read. get ready

 

 

Why is it emotionally difficult to read?

I have always viewed the Entertainment Industry as a long line of people waiting to stab you in the back. Sure, I have met some extremely nice, decent people, but I've also met some extremely horrible and nasty people who aren't worth kicking in the head to put them out of their misery. Locally we have had everything from pedophiles to a drug-dealing manager who ordered a hit on some body and forced one of the band members that he represented (who owed him money) to deliver $5,000 to the Hitman.

The more money that is involved, the more sharks there are.