reading a book.....tremendously depressed. have you read this?

[bluesway]

Most of the successful players who bring their homies along for the ride end up in a very bad place.

yeah...i'm definitely getting that vibe. the book (the original reason for this thread....not so much a "will i make it" thing ) does a decent job of talking about that.

[Scafeets]

Without naming names....I know one guy (two platinum albums) who made his best friend (and drinking buddy) his manager, firing a totally competent, professional manager in the process. In six months, the new guy managed to screw up the tour, ruin relations at the label and get half the band to quit.

The platinum artist in question was bankrupt within a year.

[daddymack]

sure there is, he just doesn't make house calls anymore...

[bluesway]

it's crazy. is there an argument to be made for lack of loyalty?

[RobRoy]

it's crazy. is there an argument to be made for lack of loyalty?

 

Yes.

 

It must be earned.

[Silouan Green]

Hey guys, I appreciate everyone's posts, even the cynical ones. So little today is done with passion and we all seem to have that in spades.

I've never "made it" but I do have friends who've had success and have met many others. A member of Vertical Horizon played on a record I included with a book I wrote and I just recorded a record in Nashville with top session players like John D Willis, Steve Brewster, etc. Also, I have a radio show in a fairly major market and my music correspondent, Jeff Tweel, has been involved in one way or another with over 50 #1 songs. You can check this out at www.americanjourneyshow.com.

It seems there are a myriad of ways people "make it" and I agree a lot of it is luck. But the surest thing we can do and have some control over is the pursuit to write truly killer songs. Most people on this board who I've checked out, and most bands I've seen at bars that were great musicians and showman but hadn't made it, didn't really have any hit songs. Nothing so catchy you couldn't keep yourself from singing or humming along. The Edge from U2 was asked once in a interview his advice for bands that wanted to make it. He basically said, "don't worry about playing live or cutting a record at first. Hole up in a garage practicing until you come up with a song that you and everyone you play it for agrees is a hit."

Of course this is subjective, but when you think of artists whose appearence, age, etc. don't fit the mold, they've usully broken through because their songwriting or a song of theirs is irrisitable. And from what I've seen of most original artists in clubs and bars, they spend so much trying to figure out the business and purely survive, they never write any really great, timeless songs. And to be honest, most probably don't have the talent. Hard work can only get you so far. Unless you get lucky of course!

So my advice, work on your songwriting and be super critical of yourself, if a commercial career is what you are after. Do you have songs as good as the best you hear on the radio? If the answer is no, keep working. And as far as age, Mike Wanchic, John Mellencamps longest serving band member, told me once that as a male musician age doesn't matter as much if you have hit songs waiting to be discovered. Mellencamp was in his 30s and considered washed up when Jack and Diane hit. You have plenty of good years left to keep trying.

As far as time and kids. Quit watching TV. Think of what you could be doing whenever you are sitting in front of it. I haven't watched in 12 years and I attribute that to my having a successful business, a radio show, a prison ministry, a catalog of great music I've created with world class musicians, and I've had 5 kids the last 7 years. And my wife has never had to work. And no, I have no family money, my dad was a preacher. I was just willing to struggle and sacrifice as much as I needed to make my life my own. If you give up everything that isn't necessary and focus on only the things that are, your family and your dream, you never know what fate will bring.

Good luck. Turn off the TV, the radio, the computer, and go write a song.

[stratcool]

That last post is the best post ever on this board. Right on the money. Amen to that. Thats why I advised the OP to talk to people who have truly MADE it rather than people who havent, because those that haven't will always give Luck and all these other thing a greater share than it deserves. But then u can obviously say that your LUCKY if you can write a really catchy song

Ive heard most of the songs by these senior members here and no offence, I wouldn't buy their cds and neither would my friends. "Wonderwall" made Oasis, Oasis made "Wonderwall". Thats all I gotta say.

[BlueStrat]

That last post is the best post ever on this board. Right on the money. Amen to that. Thats why I advised the OP to talk to people who have truly MADE it rather than people who havent, because those that haven't will always give Luck and all these other thing a greater share than it deserves. But then u can obviously say that your LUCKY if you can write a really catchy song Ive heard most of the songs by these senior members here and no offence, I wouldn't buy their cds and neither would my friends. "Wonderwall" made Oasis, Oasis made "Wonderwall". Thats all I gotta say.

 

Well, not all of us are trying to write pop hits. I wouldn't choose the blues format if I were. That doesn't mean you can't be successful in your chosen genre simply because your stuff isn't radio friendly. I've heard a lot of stuff from fellow forumites, and have even bought some of it, and a lot of it is quite good, IMO, but none of it would ever make commercial radio. But commercial radio airplay is only one version of success. The fact is, it DOES come down to luck, because no matter how much you do, you still have to have the right product in the right place at the right time in front of the right person. Take any one of those things away and it ain't happening.

 

I have a friend who is a harp player and decent singer. He used to come see us play when he was too young to get in the bars, and would hang outside and watch us through the window. He does that old 50's blues thing. He's got talent, for sure. But he also skipped the wife and kids deal, and got an offer to play with a national headliner's band that he opened for, so he dumped his band. The band got booked in Europe and then on a blues cruise, which ended up in San Francisco. He went to a jam at one of the clubs there after getting off the ship and sat in. Just happened to be a guy from Blind Pig records there, one of the major blues labels. They signed him almost on the spot, the only guy they've ever signed just hearing him jam.

 

The point of this story is, I know a lot of people more talented than this kid, good as he is. This kid is 29. Other guys I know have been slogging it out on the circuit since he was in diapers. But they weren't in front of a Blind Pig exec at a jam of blues cruise musicians, and this kid was. Right product in the right place at the right time in front of the right guy. On a different night, at a different time, in a different club, if the Blind Pig guy isn't in the room, my buddy is still doing shows backing up the headliner dude. In fact, he'll be the first one to tell you he was incredibly lucky, fortunate, blessed, whatever term you want to call it. The world if full of monster talents that haven't been in the right place at the right time in front of the right people.

 

If it makes you feel better to think you have control over your musical destiny and guys who haven't 'made it' just aren't' good enough, that's your prerogative, I suppose, but there are way too many uncontrollable variables to success in a way too subjective business for anyone to take credit for when they are or blame for when they aren't. Add that to the fact that there are tons of lesser talents that any one of us can point to that have 'made it (*cough*billyraycyrus*cough*).' Do you not see the element of luck in that?

 

And far as 'talking to people who have truly MADE IT rather than those who haven't' (whatever your definition of 'making it' is), how many of them do you think hang out on internet forums? What are guys supposed to do, email Noel and Liam Gallagher?

 

By that standard, no one should ask anyone here anything.

 

Ah, well. In the end, we're all just pimples on the ass of the music business anyway.

[Silouan Green]

I'd be the first to say "Making It" is a relative idea. I was primarily addressing the person who thinks "Making It" means being a rock/pop star. To me making is doing what you love on your terms. Whatever those terms happen to be. I sing to hundreds of people weekly (in prisons) and thousands of people hear my songs every Saturday (on my radio show.) Even though I don't feel I've "made it" yet, by figuring out a way to get my music out I get incredible joy from it every week. Anyone here can find a way to do the same thing. Clubs and coffee shops aren't the only places you can find people to entertain and inspire. And shouldn't that be a part of everyone's music life?

I also agree many artists who "make it" in a rock star sense get lucky. I've been in many a bar and heard a band that made me say, "man, they are as good or better than say the Goo Goo Dolls, or Better than Ezra, etc." And I would be the first to admit that there are many factors including luck that will determine if said band makes it or not.

On the other hand, I'm a firm believer that if you write truly awesome classic songs, sing them well, are competent on your instruments, and are persistant you will get discovered, and you will make your own luck. I have never walked into a bar, heard an unsigned band and gone, "My god, they are as good as the Beatles, or My god, they are as good as the Stones, etc." But it does happens. Think of Guns n' Roses. Almost every song on Appetite and November Rain and Don't Cry from Use your Illusion were written before they were signed. Can you imagine seeing an unsigned Guns n Roses play those songs? People were lining out the door to see them and record labels followed. Luck might have been involved in the pieces of the band coming together, but there was NO LUCK involved with them getting signed.

So I'll firmly agree you can get signed through luck and many bands do. But if you have talent and are able to right truly killer classic songs, luck will have nothing to do with you getting signed. And since you can control the growth of your songwriting, that is why I think that should be anybody's main focus.

Now to be the devil's advocate against myself. I have a friend who I've known for years and is an A&R person for Sony Nashville. I asked her what it takes to get signed and she said unflinchingly, "luck".

Of course, she hasn't found her Brooks and Dunn yet!

And in defense of Billy Ray Cyrus. My producer, Jeff Tweel, just produced some songs on Billy Ray's latest album and has known him since Billy Ray came to Nashville penniless. Achy Breaky Heart while cheesy and many other negative things, is undeniably catchy. Also, Billy Ray is one of the nicest, most charming, hard working guys you'll ever meet. His "luck" was made by making many connections based on his personality, working hard, and because of these connections and hard work was able to be the person to sing the catchy but infamous Achy Breaky Heart.

[Silouan Green]

Oh, and I forgot. You don't need Noel Gallagher to read this and reply to find out how they got signed. The story has been told many times by Oasis and Creation Records found Alan McGhee, and a friend of mine was shortly on Creation Records in the 90s and met Oasis. Liam and the rest of the band were gigging but didn't have good songs. They asked Noel to join because he played them some killer songs. They made a 5 or 6 song demo and were able to get it Alan at Creation. He heard the song "Live Forever" and his decision was basically made. This is the simple version (I think he saw them live too, can't remember though), but I imagine Oasis would agree with my "write a killer song to get signed" school of thought. Go listen to "Live Forever". It is a classic Brit Pop song that grabs you by the throat from the opening note. Any band or artist with a song that good will get signed. In my opinion.

[BlueStrat]

 

I'm a firm believer that if you write truly awesome classic songs, sing them well, are competent on your instruments, and are persistent you will get discovered,

 

 

On what do you base this belief? "Truly awesome songs" are subjective to the nth degree. And you still have to have someone who recognizes it's greatness and is willing to record it. In point of fact, a ton of artists who have huge hits are astonished at the songs that become hits, as they usually aren't the songs that they really love that go big. I see that on a smaller scale, with my own CDs. The songs that get the most requests and the most downloads aren't the ones I thought would be the most liked. Like everything else in the music business, hit songs are less about effort and more about accident than anything else.

 

And the world is full of phenomenal players who will never be heard by more than a few thousand people at a time. I see 'em every time I go to a festival full of regional acts that have been regional acts for 15 years.

 

 

Oh, and I forgot. You don't need Noel Gallagher to read this and reply to find out how they got signed.

 

 

That wasn't the point of my comment. The point is, stratcool said in essence, since no one here has 'made it', their advice is suspect. But you made my point for me when you put this up about how Oasis 'made it.'. The real point is, you can take 200 bands who 'made it' and you'll hear 200 different ways that it happened. And somewhere in there, you'll hear common to every story that they had the right product in the right place at the right time in front of the right people. There is no one way to make it, no set path to success. Yes, they were likely all prepared to 'make it.' But being prepared to make it and working hard doesn't mean you will anymore than anyone else. What the Gallagher twins did to 'make it' probably wouldn't work for anyone else. So what good would their advice be? All they coulkd really say is "This is how we did it it. Good luck."

 

The bottom line is, there are way too many bands for the demand, many of them quite good, and a very large number of top shelf bands are going to miss the boat simply by virtue of sheer numbers alone, if nothing else, not to mention the fractionalized fan base due to sub and sub-sub genre niche marketing.

 

So many people want to believe that if they just find that magic formula, that one thing that will get them noticed, read that one book, or do what that one band did, they too will become successful. But as has been said countless times here before, by lots of different people, some with high level experience in this biz: Figuring out how to control your success is like trying to figure out how to win the lottery. There are just too many variables that no one can foresee, let alone control.

[Silouan Green]

"On what do I base this belief"

Boston - had never played live, recorded their debut album mostly in a basement, based off the stregth of the songs they got a deal. Tom Schultz was in his late 20s and goofy looking.

Oasis - the build a following with bad songs, no deal. They get Noel on board, do a 6 song demo with killer classic songs, they get a deal.

Guns n' Roses - Multiple labels knock on their door as they perform a set consisting of songs that will make up one of the best albums of all time. The songs are so good November Rain and Don't Cry don't even make the cut.

Jewel - Rep hears her singing the songs that will make up her debut album in a coffee shop, is blown away and signs her.

I could go on. Many different stories, one common demoninator, killer songs.

Please don't pick my posts apart out of context. This isn't fun if I have to write this like one of my business contracts. Clearly, many people get singed for a myriad for reasons, some talented, some not. And I clearly stated this in earlier posts.

All I'm saying, if there is one thing you can control and put effort into that I think has the best chance of allowing "luck", or "fate", or "hard work" or whatever you want to call it to get you signed or whatever your definition of "making it" is, it's being brutally honest about your songwriting and doing everything you can to make yourself better.

The problem with most musicians is the same problem with kids who want to grow up be a Pro Football Player, etc. It's not that the ones who make it do it shearly out of "luck", it's that the ones who didn't make it usually didn't have enough talent in the first place and won't admit it. There are obviously exceptions, especially in sports (look at all the football players who have thrown away careers or gotten injuries), but I think in general this is true.

That being said. If you believe in your self, live a life of meaning, work hard, and avoid the traps of this superficial world, then any way you use your music was worth it. I am personally proud of all the guys on this board who have spent years trying to make a life out of music. We all have a lot to learn from guys like Bluestrat. Look him up on the web, he's done a hell of a lot of cool stuff. When you strive for a dream, you've already won.

[BlueStrat]

"On what do I base this belief" Boston - had never played live, recorded their debut album mostly in a basement, based off the stregth of the songs they got a deal. Tom Schultz was in his late 20s and goofy looking. Oasis - the build a following with bad songs, no deal. They get Noel on board, do a 6 song demo with killer classic songs, they get a deal. Guns n' Roses - Multiple labels knock on their door as they perform a set consisting of songs that will make up one of the best albums of all time. The songs are so good November Rain and Don't Cry don't even make the cut. Jewel - Rep hears her singing the songs that will make up her debut album in a coffee shop, is blown away and signs her. I could go on. Many different stories, one common demoninator, killer songs. Please don't pick my posts apart out of context. This isn't fun if I have to write this like one of my business contracts. Clearly, many people get singed for a myriad for reasons, some talented, some not. And I clearly stated this in earlier posts. All I'm saying, if there is one thing you can control and put effort into that I think has the best chance of allowing "luck", or "fate", or "hard work" or whatever you want to call it to get you signed or whatever your definition of "making it" is, it's being brutally honest about your songwriting and doing everything you can to make yourself better. The problem with most musicians is the same problem with kids who want to grow up be a Pro Football Player, etc. It's not that the ones who make it do it shearly out of "luck", it's that the ones who didn't make it usually didn't have enough talent in the first place and won't admit it. There are obviously exceptions, especially in sports (look at all the football players who have thrown away careers or gotten injuries), but I think in general this is true. That being said. If you believe in your self, live a life of meaning, work hard, and avoid the traps of this superficial world, then any way you use your music was worth it. I am personally proud of all the guys on this board who have spent years trying to make a life out of music. We all have a lot to learn from guys like Bluestrat. Look him up on the web, he's done a hell of a lot of cool stuff. When you strive for a dream, you've already won.

 

You make some valid points, and do so succinctly, I might add.

 

Well, then let me ask you this: Do you think having 'killer songs" is something you can learn to produce, or is it luck there, too? Because from where I sit, I've never seen or even heard of anyone setting out to write a hit and do it. Most seem to be quite accidental. Or am I missing something?

 

And what do you think a killer song is? I mean, it's easy to look back at the ones that have become popular, but I don't see any way of predicting what will be a hit in the future and what won't. I hear stuff all the time that I think is awesome, but it will never make a chart anywhere. It's one thing to say "have killer songs", but it's another thing to 1) be able to do it and 2) be able to predict what will sell.

[Silouan Green]

Not one for easy questions are ya' Bluestrat! This could take a book to answer. Pardon me ahead of time for whatever I forget to address.

Yes, I have met people that I think to differing degrees can sit down and write a hit. Soon after I started my musical adventure I had a meeting with the head of Universal Publishing Nashville, Pat Higdon. As I was walking in, Tony Arata was walking out. He's the guy who wrote a lot of Garth Brooks hits, etc. That guy, and many like him I've met in Nashville can to some degree sit down and write a hit. For them, I don't think it's luck. It's years of writing songs, studying songs, and living lives that have experiences worth writing about. And it's not just Nashville songwriters, great songwriters/bands had stretches where I believe they would set out to write a hit and within a few songs had one, i.e. The Eagles, The Beatles, Bruce Springsteen, AC/DC, Oasis, etc. Of course, I also believe music is a quirky thing and lot of one hit wonders were pure creative luck.

But I don't think the well for these guys is endless. Obviously. I think true classic hits derive from meaningful or at least interesting/memorable/unique life experiences and at some point writers run out of things emotive enough to write a classic. But yes, a songwriter with melodic talent who has led an interesting life and has mastered the basic tools of songwriting, i.e. song structure, lyrics, melody, the ability to be critical of ones own work, etc. can for a certain time sit down and write hits. I do believe at some point though the well runs dry. Noel Gallagher when talking about writing the songs for Definately Maybe point blank said those songs could have only been written at that time in his life when the experiences of a young man struggling to "make it" were fresh in his mind. Based on their last album though, I still think he has enough interesting ideas running around in his head that he can still sit down and write a hit. At least for the British market!

Now while I believe in luck, I also believe luck is often just where preparation meets opportunity. I think there is a reason that not one of my say 100 favorite songs is by an undiscovered artist. Hey Jude is better than any song I've ever written or will. The Beatles wrote 50 songs better than anyone here has ever heard from an unsigned band in a bar. I'm sure BluesStrat has heard plenty of good songs from unsigned bands, but I bet none of them are as good as any of the 10 best songs from the bands I listed above. I doubt they are even close. And if "makin it" means being a big star in the Rockstar context, unless you are going to count on nothing but luck, you better be able to look in the mirror and believe you can write songs as good as "Hotel California", "Hey Jude", "Born to Run", "Back in Black", "Wonderwall", etc. I'll say it again. I believe that if you are sitting on a song that good and do whatever you can to perform it in front of people, you will get discovered. If you're not sitting on that song, you can count on luck (it happens to bands with talent/buzz/etc. but no great songs everyday) to be discovered or you can keep trying to write better songs.

As far as what I think a killer song it? I know one when I hear one!

But I do believe that all the songs I listed above have the following, 1) melodic, memorable choruses you can sing along to and memorize instantly, 2) Visual, memorable verses with chord sequences that set up the chorus, 3) They stay true to themselves, i.e. the song sets a vibe and sticks to it, 4) They all are based on some meaningful/emotive life experience(Hotel California - The Eagles experience in the cesspool of LA, Hey Jude - a song to julian lennon after the break up of his parents mariage, Born to Run - Springsteen's desperate desire to make a hit record, he was going to be dropped if the record didn't sell, and Wonderwall - Noel Gallaghers roller coaster relationship with his first wife Meg, I think she was a girlfriend at the time. and 5) they are performed with energy and sincerity, i.e. the performance sells the song.

Finally, the biggest reason for a lack of killer songwriters today? A generation spent in daycare, in front of the TV, text messaging at 13, with nothing of any intelligence to talk about. I think this is the reason more than anything record labels rely on drum loops, auto-tune, sex, and image to sell records. They are selling to a vapid public and this same vapid public isn't producing true revolutionaries like Bob Dylan or The Beatles with the character and talent to help them get theirs heads out of their a__es.

[Terry Allan Hall]

has anyone read moses avalon's "million dollar mistakes" about the cesspool that is the music industry? (he wrote another one before it called "confessions of a music producer" or something like that. i didn't read it, but i heard it was good.) it's brilliantly written. and what he's trying to do is steer you clear of the {censored} in the business, but the effect it is having on me is simply instilling fear and maybe a shot of not-so-appreciated-or-needed reality. part of being a musician is continuing and persevering and i'm getting discouraged. here's my deal: i'm pretty much at a crossroads; i'm 29 years old - thirty in the fall. i have a wife and kid, so my professional music goals had to take a bit of a back burner to parenting/husbandry....and that's cool. but now my son's almost 6 and doesn't need the 'babying' that he needed before and i'm just about to release a pretty serious songwriter/jazzy disk in the summer.........but this is a pretty ageist business....and i'm coming up on the age where it's not doing for a guy like me, you know? reading this book is getting really difficult for me. has anyone gone through this? dealt with it? i'd love any help or ideas you have. really.

Ageism needn't be a problem unless you make it one...the only genres that ageism is really an issue for is "Mega-Star Pop singers" (50 Cent, Britney Spears, that sort of thing)...jazz, folk, roots, Singer/Songwriter, etc. accepts "past 30" entertainers (I'm a bit over 20 years past 30, myself and make a comfortable living as such) just fine.

Are you too old to be a Super Star...probably!...but do you REALLY want to be one?

Think of the Music Industry as a mountain, with all of us starting at the bottom...some feel compelled to go to the very top and feel like they're a failure if they don't sit on the pinnacle, and if they actually get up there, must fight constantly (and eventually futily) to keep their tiny niche, all the while ignoring all that great real estate between those two points!

Think outside of the Top 40 box...

Hope this of some help!

[BlueStrat]

Silouan Green,

What a great post. Gives me a lot to consider.

[Terry Allan Hall]

No, what he's going to need now is a dad. Age 6 to 16 is crucial for fathers with their sons. Everything he will learn about being a man he will learn from you, both good and bad, and this will be 'caught' as much as taught. You cannot pass on to him what you are not there to give. I don't know why so many musicians do this to themselves. ( I include myself here, because I did it too). Why do so many of us have a dream about making it in music, and then drag a wife and kid(s) into it? I was in my 40s before I came to the realizatioin that if you want to be a pro performer doing your own material, traveling is the job , pure and simple. If you have a family, get used to doing weekend gigs. Or get used to losing your family, because successful original bands are playing about 340 nights a year. I don't personally know any full time road musicians whose marriages survived (including my first one). I've heard of it, but I've never seen it.

 

 

Some very valid points, except that you CAN make decent $$$ w/o traveling, but not by playing bars (which, as far back as I remember, have always paid poorly)...otoh, by selling your music in "the better sorts" of places, the $$$ is much better, although some might not like the lack of attention...some of the best paying gigs are where the musician(s) is/are just background ambience.

[daddymack]

Now while I believe in luck, I also believe luck is often just where preparation meets opportunity. I think there is a reason that not one of my say 100 favorite songs is by an undiscovered artist. .

Well, then, what does that say?
It says that you can't break in as an unknown?
See, here's the thing...we accept these as great songs (frankly several you mention, although big hits, fall short of what I consider to be great examples of songwriting). Again, a hit is not necessarily a great song...Achy-Breaky Heart...the Macarena...need I continue? Commerciality is not neceesarily the stamp of good or outstanding songwriting; your comment about preparation meeting opportunity applies more to the one hit wonders and the novelty songs than to seasoned well crafted songwriters. And genre comes in to play, since although I may (or may not) have written some great songs, they do not fall within the modern marketability structure, and therefor may languish unheralded because at the time they had no commercial potential.

So I am suggesting that timing, skill, marketability and being noticed when all these factors align..well...we call that luck where I come from...

[Silouan Green]

First of all, please read my posts, I admit that luck has had and will continue to have an influence on who is and who isn't allowed into popular music.

But instead of falling into the cynicism and bitterness that seems to ooze through Harmony Central, I've tried to address the original question of "I'm 29, worried about my age, etc. and wonder what can I do to break into the music biz." And further, he implied that "makin it" meant making it on a commercial level so I've stayed away from all the great ways you can make music a meaningful part or your life.

Now I could either say, "dude your f__ked, it's all luck" and ensure I could get a big "Amen" from most of the people on this board. Or I could try to be helpful based on my experience and the people I know.

Based on my experience, I think that if there is one thing you can work on to minimize or potentially eliminate the luck factor, it's your songwriting.

I'll give a first hand example. My producer and music correspondant on my radio show, Jeff Tweel, has either written, been a session musican on, a producer, or publisher of over 50 #1 songs. That is 50, that's a pretty high number to call luck. Now I could say it's luck, "boy Jeff is lucky", or I could say, "Jeff is a great people person and networked well when he got to Nashville, he was a classically trained pianist who won national awards, he studied songwriting starting with the greats of the 40s and 50s religiously, he worked with lots of other songwriters and musicians, he practiced his craft and got constructive criticism from lots of people and was willing to make himself better based on that." Well guess what, I go for the latter. While I'm sure that Jeff has been lucky, he got where he was based upon the factors I listed and at some point took luck out of the equation. And he's not alone, I've met many people like him.

Of course, people do get lucky. My cousin's grew up and went to school with Britney Spears at Parklane Academy in Mississippi. Her family went to my family's church. She met a music exec at a hotel with her mother and manager, sang a song, he signed her on the spot for $1 million. Most everyone here on HC would diss her talent and call that luck. I might too. But what you don't know is that she had been preparing for that moment for years with dance classes, singing lessons, pageants, and her experience on the Mickey Mouse club. It might have luck, but I doubt there were 10 girls her age as prepared for that moment. I guess luck made her the one that got the chance, but it surely wasn't all just unfair luck.

Now where I come from someone like Jeff Tweel, and there are many people like him in the business I've met, accomplished what he did based upon the actions he took to be successful, not luck.

And where I come from, most people would say Britney Spears got lucky, although some would say she had prepared her whole life for one moment and she was bound to get at lease one chance to "make it".

And finally, using "luck" to explain other people's success is a cop out. You did not walk in their shoes. I doubt even the smallest fraction of people here know anyone who made it on national level personally enough to have any idea what they had to do to make it. The fact that people explain "luck" so cynically and succinctly tells me they are probably negative people that successful people don't like working with. I see parellels in business as a business consultant and entrepreneur. In general, the only business owners who talk about luck are those who have not been successful, have glaring weaknesses they won't correct, and start looking for scapegoats. Successful people on the other hand work hard, constantly improve, never make excuses, always try to get better. They might say they got some lucky breaks but when you ask them what made them successful it is always some tangible thing that can be controlled. If this is how you approach your songwriting and your career you will give yourself the best chance to succeed. It's a long shot, it's competitive, you might not have the talent, but this is your best chance. Unless of course, you only believe in luck. Then you really are f__ked.

[BlueStrat]

The fact that there is no one way to make it tells me that luck is the major ingredient.

 

It's not like gthis: "If you go to law school, graduate, pass the bar, and send out resumes, you will eventually get hired by a law firm somewhere and begin your career, and eventually make a comfortable living."

 

Or substitute law for engineering, or nursing, or dentistry...there are things that everyone has to do to get from point A to point Z in most career fields.

 

Not so with music. You can't say "If you learn your instrument, get really good, draw big crowds, make some CDs, get national press, tour, and write some good songs, you'll eventually get a record deal and make a comfortable living in music." In fact, of all the bands that do these very things, still less than 5% ever 'make it.' Like I said before, there aren't two bands in the world who made it the same way.

 

As far as writing good songs? That's an entirely subjective thing, and another element of luck all in itself. Yes, you can do things to help yourself, like not writing 8 minute death metal songs, but in the end it still and always will come down to having the right product, in the right place, at the right time, in front of the right person. And you will never, ever know if it's the right product until someone buys it. There is no way around that. Sorry of that makes me a naysayer or negative. I'm not going to lie to the OP and say, "well, just do this, this and this and you'll have it."

 

Looks like we're gonna have to disagree.

[Silouan Green]

Far more people try to be professional atheletes than successfull musicians (meaning part of big band, successful session musician, successful songwriter, etc. not necessarilly a superstar) and I would wager the odds are lower to be a professional athelete. Are the guys who make it to the pros all just lucky? Now I know that the qualities that give someone the chance to be a pro basketball player are more tangible than the qualities that give someone the chance to be a successful musician, but I think the analogy still applies.

If someone says, "I want to be a pro basketball player." Do you tell them, "man, it's all luck." or do you say, "if you have the talent, physical skills and work harder than anyone else, you might have a chance."

Conversely, if someone says, "I want to be a successful musician." Do you tell them, "man, it's all luck." or do you say, "work hard, learn to write great songs, tour, learn from other musicians, etc. and you might have a chance."

Luck is a cop out. I ejected from a jet less than 20 feet from the ground, my co-pilot died, my parachute didn't fully deploy and I broke my back but I still lived. That is luck. Or a miracle.

Since then I've published a national magazine, started a successful business from nothing and now make lots of money, have a big happy family with 5 kids, have my own successful radio show, play to hundreds of people every week and have thousands every week listen to my songs on the radio. From the outside that might look like luck, but I can tell you luck had nothing to do with it.

And I'll end with my friend. Was he in the right place, at the right time, etc. 50 times. A majority of these he was the publisher, the guy who had to pick a song and decide whether it would be a hit. Luck, or does he just know more about songwriting, peoples taste, in many different genres than myself and anyone else writing or reading this thread.

Same goes for say Clive Davis, was he lucky all the dozens of times he discovered someone who would be a major star?

Or how about the Beatles, The Eagles, etc. Were they at the right time, place, etc. time and time again or were they just better than you, me and everyone else reading this.

And again, can we please address the question as oppossed to some existential discussion on, "hit songs, luck or talent and hard work." They should create a whole new forum catagory, "Excuses on why I didn't make it." From the attitude of this board, we should have a lot of experts willing to contribute. Myself included.

The first guy wanted to know what he could do to try to "make it". I suggested that working on his song writing was the best use of his time. We are in the business of music, people singing songs. I would have thought this would be one thing we could all agree upon.

What good does a discussion of luck do? Does it make us better musicians, does it make us better songwriters? It's nothing but an unneccessary excuse and a cop out. If you live a good life, work hard and never make it, so what. You still succeeded. Why soil that with an attitude of, "if I was only lucky I would have been famous, more successful, etc." I think it just demeans all our efforts.

And to end, thanks again for the passion of all the musicians on this board. If you are playing music and entertaing yourself and others, then you've already made it. It doesn't matter if you play in nursing homes, bars, on the road, in stadiums or in your living room in front of unruly children. I look forward to another worthwhile discussion on which I can contribute.

[Silouan Green]

Oh, and I think people might be confusing luck with competition and market forces. For instance, Blues music is a small market niche, there is only so much room for people to succeed in. Why did Stevie Ray Vaughan get wildly popular in this tight genre, is it because he's lucky and guys like Bluestrat aren't? Or is it because he was wildly talented, a far better singer and songwriter with a distinctive voice, had a great personality for networking, etc., i.e. head and shoulders above Bluestrat and hundreds of talented, hard working guys like him. There is only so much room at the top, and in general, the cream rises to the top. And again, luck can get you there(especially in teen/pop music as another poster implied), but you can't control luck. Or you can be like Stevie Ray, pratice until your fingers bleed, work on your songwriting and singing, and if you have incredible natural talent and skills to go with that you might fit into one of the small pegs that are waiting for someone to fill. Or you might not, in which case, hopefully the journey was a good one.

[gtrjones]

Here's my opinion about luck.

IMO, It's about opportunity. Not only being 'given' an opportunity, but having the vision to see that this 'thing' being offered IS an opportunity, and having the ability to do what's necessary to follow-up, and being willing to jump out and take that risk when you think the opportunity is there. It's also about being smart enough to recognize what a TRUE opportunity is, but not being hostage to the 'are you SURE?' questions when you see what is a good shot.

The difference between Brittney (or Stevie) and the others is not so much that one is luckier than the others, or one is more talented than the others. It's more that they were good at being prepared to leap, and leapt at the right opportunities. But, that prepared part again - when they DID leap, their talent was a big part of them being able to capture and realize that opportunity.

Using SRV as an example - going to the Montreaux Jazz Festival in 85 was probably an odd choice - who knew it would lead to a job in the studio for David Bowie that really helped raise his status as a player, and who knew it would lead to an offer to be in Bowie's band, AND an offer to record a record at Jackson Brown's studios... much less which of those opportunities to leap toward.

[BlueStrat]

 

Oh, and I think people might be confusing luck with competition and market forces. For instance, Blues music is a small market niche, there is only so much room for people to succeed in. Why did Stevie Ray Vaughan get wildly popular in this tight genre, is it because he's lucky and guys like Bluestrat aren't? Or is it because he was wildly talented, a far better singer and songwriter with a distinctive voice, had a great personality for networking, etc., i.e. head and shoulders above Bluestrat and hundreds of talented, hard working guys like him. There is only so much room at the top, and in general, the cream rises to the top. And again, luck can get you there(especially in teen/pop music as another poster implied), but you can't control luck. Or you can be like Stevie Ray, pratice until your fingers bleed, work on your songwriting and singing, and if you have incredible natural talent and skills to go with that you might fit into one of the small pegs that are waiting for someone to fill. Or you might not, in which case, hopefully the journey was a good one.

 

 

Now you've veered off into ridiculousness. SRV himself said many times that he was extremely lucky, because he knew he was paddling against the current to what was selling at the time, which was new wave and punk, and some hair metal. He was a complete abberation, and thought he would be doing well to just get into the regular blues circuit along with his heroes, Albert and BB King, Albert Collins, Buddy Guy, etc etc, hardly superstars. No one was more surprise at his success than he was, and in interviews seems self conscious and even said he felt a little guilty for becoming successful on the backs of the greats that he was emulating, while they toiled on in relative obscurity.

 

As far as personality, he had a horrible one, from the bios I've read. His nicknames around Austin were "Stevie Rave On" and "Stevie Ray Asshole". He was without doubt a monster talent, but as far as "had a great personality for networking, etc ", he nearly sabotaged his own success and was bailed out of many near catastrophic episodes due to drinking and drugs by those who believed in him. He would wear the same shirt for a week, never brushed his teeth, rarely showered, and often slept on pool tables until he sobered up in about 1987.

 

But you know what? He had the right product, at the right time, in the right place, for the right people, period.

 

It is silly to compare me to him, because there will never be those exact circumstances duplicated ever again, and the blues thing has run it's course as far as a popular genre and has returned to the place it had before SRV. I could be 10 times better than SRV and it wouldn't matter (I'm not, and not saying I am). In fact, the blues world is filled with guys that are arguably as good (or better) but they aren't ever going to make it like he did because there isn't any longer any demand for it in a commercial sense. All the blues clubs that opened up around the 600 mile radius where I played have mostly gone back to classic rock and pop music. A white blues guitar slinger playing in new wave and punk clubs isn't fresh anymore, like it was in 1982. It's old news. That "white boys with strats playing the blues" wad has been shot.

 

 

I don't get where you think you can work on writing "great songs". For every great song that gets airplay and becomes a hit, I'd wager there are 10 that don't. Like I said before, no one even knows what's a hit until it becomes one. Do you think SRV thought "Pride and Joy" was a great song that would become a hit? It certainly wasn't, in his mind. It was a tune he wrote for his girlfriend, but it was almost a throwaway song, just another 1-4-5 shuffle, one of a few that he had on that album (he played nearly the exact same song but changed the lyrics after she left and called it "I'm Cryin'"). It only became a 'great song' after it became a hit (and I still don't think it's all that great).

 

And what about the guys who are in bands who don't write, but only play? You don't think chance has any play in the fact that their success is almost entirely dependent on who they know and who they meet?

 

I believe you should work hard. I believe you should prepare for opportunities. I believe you should try to minimize the element of chance as much as possible. But after you do all that, there is still a slim chance of making it. That's just a mathmatical fact. It's not much different than being a fiction writer or a painter. You can get as good as you can, but until the right person at the right time in the right place sees your work and likes it, you're just another starving artist.

 

Earlier, you used being an athlete as a comparison. It isn't a valid one, though. You're either faster than someone else, or you aren't. You can either catch a football at a dead run, or you can't. You either have a .350 batting average or you don't. It is performance which gets you the gig. The best performers will get the gig.

 

With music, there are tons and tons of performers who are great and a great many who are better than those getting the gigs, who won't get them because of many reasons-not the right image, or look, or sound, or petty politics, or just not in the right place at the right time in front of the right people. There are infinitely more variables which are entirely subjective and unquantifiable than there are with just about any other field one could go into. It just isn't as simple or as controllable as you want to make it sound.

 

Anyway, I realize I'm beating a dead horse here. So I'll let it go and just agree to disagree. I do respect you and your opinion, though, and thank you for a spirited and civil discussion. You're a good man!

[Silouan Green]

Considering two civil, well intentioned guys can't agree, I wonder if you have to be a little crazy to even consider trying your hand at the music biz!

And while Stevie Ray might have been a pig as you describe him, he sure seemed to have an ability to get in/be around the right people to make his career happen. I've known plenty of obnoxious people who were great at meeting the right people if for no other reason than they had the will to find success. But if the great SRV said he made it on luck I'll hold my tongue!

I have a question Bluestrat. I wrote a book about my surviving my jet crash in the Marines and the resulting complications. A couple years ago I sent out 20 query letters to big New York agents and got no response.

After this I decided to print the book myself, sold it at shows, got press on TV and shared the message of the book with people like prisoners, etc. I've sold 500 copies. Now 3 weeks ago I sent a query letter to 20 big New York agents stating I'd sold 500 copies and included pictures of events, etc. So far 3 agents have sent me letters excited about the book and asked for a copy.

Many people would say it's as competitive or even more competitive to get a book published than it is to get a record deal, it might or might not be. And I have a long way to go before I get a publishing deal. But it begs the point, was I "lucky" this time around to get 3 postive responses with more possibly to come in, or did I just go back to the drawing, take control of my destiny, and make my "luck". The story won't be told until I get a deal or not, but it ought to be an interesting study of luck. Unlike sports with all the tangibles you can measure making it an imperfect analogy to music as you mentioned, writing is definitely as arbitrary and filled with almost as many variables as music.

Debaters of luck, stay tuned!