Taylor Hicks

[fuzzball]

I guess I would take a short term career if it set me up for life financialy.

[Jotown]

 

I guess I would take a short term career if it set me up for life financialy.

For starters my comment did not imply any judgement; good or bad or whatever.

 

The record biz is built on exploitation. Everyone who has ever signed a record deal has to know that they will get screwed the first three or four years (or CD's) thats just the name of the game.

 

American Idol's contract takes substantially more than any other record deal you will ever sign (that is if anyone ever offers you one)

 

As far as being set for life goes; don't you ever watch the VH1 "Where are they now" segments? Temporary fame and success does not automatically equal "set for life." In fact 99 out of a hundred who have a hit record are not set for life.

 

As Hunter S. Thompson wrote:

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench. A long plastic hallway where pimps and thieves run free and good men die like dogs. There is also a negative side.":D -Hunter S. Thompson

 

[joie]

 

Everyone who has ever signed a record deal has to know that they will get screwed the first three or four years .... As far as being set for life goes; don't you ever watch the VH1 "Where are they now" segments? Temporary fame and success does not automatically equal "set for life." In fact 99 out of a hundred who have a hit record are not set for life.

Depends what you mean by screwed, if they clearly state, you will make .25 cent per CD or 1.00 per concert ticket and you agree, I don't see them as screwing you.

 

If Burger King sell a billion dollars of food per year and pay it's front line workers 6.00 hr, are they cheating them??

 

True, many musicians who charted struggled with money, but Jennifer Hudson, who came in 6th place is going to be a multi millionaire, and I just read that rock chick from season one just bought a 3.7 mil home in Southern Calif.

[fuzzball]

If they don't have enough money for life after making millions the real problem may be how they handle their money.

 

I agree they may take a larger cut, but to be honest they do provide massive exposure (more than most artists will ever get). With that in mind I guess it is a good price to pay in order to make a fortune.

[BlueStrat]

 

For starters; Gross is not Net. Grossing 39 million could mean only netting 2 million (if that) and if you are only getting 20% of the net profits that would come out to a couple hundred grand (if that) It is not unusual for an act to gross 15 million on a tour and lose money! It is very expensive to be out there with a band; especially with a high profile show that has 3 busses and 2 trucks of gear and a couple of dozen crew members and musicians. The AI kids get a break and a very bad deal that they sign while they are still nobody's. Every nickle spent to promote, record, market, tour comes out of their pockets. The typical deal with AI lasts three years and AI gets paid off the top (off the gross) not the net. There was a copy of the AI contract posted some time back. The record biz eats its young and AI is no exception to the rule. These kids get a break. Maybe one out of 5 will actually get a real career. Yeah it's better than working at Burger King; but it is still Exploitation with a capital "E".

 

 

If Carrie Underwood is suffering, she's crying all te way to the bank. Trust me.

 

Even if the contract she has is total {censored}, she's still miles ahead, both financially and publicity-wise, than most guys signed to major labels. I'd take exploitation like that any day of the week.

[BlueStrat]

 

The record biz is built on exploitation.

 

 

Who doesn't know that?

[Jotown]

Who doesn't know that?

Those who objected to my use of the word "Exploitation".

[Jack Walker]

Let's not forget that Carrie had three major hits last year and won female vocalist of the year at the CMAs. That adds about $25K to your asking price per night. She will probably be a fixture in country music along with with Martina and Faith Hill in a few years.

 

On another note, Kelly Clarkson was invited to sing on the first CMT tribute to Reba, called "Country Giants". With the exception of Martina, Kelly blew everyone else off the stage including Faith and LeAnn Rhimes. Kelly can sing it all. She will have no problem hanging around.

[BlueStrat]

Those who objected to my use of the word "Exploitation".

 

 

Do you think the exploitation is one sided?

[FastRedPonyCar]

Our rythm guitarist used to be the rythem guitar player for Taylor's band. He's got countless pics of them back in highschool (birmingham, al). He still talks to the hicks family every now and then and saw them and Taylor at christmas. Everyone got signed cd's from the band.

 

Anyways, I think daughtry's new cd is pretty good. It's got a few highlight tracks but nothing really stood out to me. It wasn't bad.. It was just ok. Crashed is pretty good and the two solo acoustic tracks are good as they really showcase his singing ability. I get the feeling though as I'm listening to the songs that some generic pop song writing team wrote them all and then handed the music and lyrics to the band and that was that.

 

I want to hear what chris's old band sounded like. If they had originals, I think they should have shown up on the CD (if they didn't already).

 

Some complaints about chris's album is that it's too nickelback'ish but I think nickelback has become a cliche'd modern rock band sound so any rock band these days of course is going to draw some comparision. Personally, I think nickelback and daughtry both have high and low points.

[Jotown]

Do you think the exploitation is one sided?

No. But exploitation can only really occur when someone in power has you doing what they want; and you not having the power to say no.

[elsongs]

If I went on American Idol, I'd want to be one of the finalists but I wouldn't want to win it all. Let's faceit, there's a stigma that you'll never shake off if you're "THE American Idol."

 

Lately, it's actually better if you DON'T win -- just look at what happened to Jennifer Hudson recently...

 

Then again, anyone seen Justin Guarini lately? Anyone? [crickets]

[BlueStrat]

 

No. But exploitation can only really occur when someone in power has you doing what they want; and you not having the power to say no.

 

 

Do you think anyone who signs a record contract does so with a gun to their head? Anyone on AI can refuse to sign. They know what they're getting into before they sign, or they should if they have half a brain and hire a lawyer.

 

I guess I define exploitation differently than you do. I define it as using resources that someone else posesses to better myself.

 

The way I see it, if I believe in my ability, and I make it to the final 12 on American Idol, and I sign a record contract based on that, I'm miles ahead toward my goal than I would be had I not used them. Even if I get a fraction of what the AI producers make, so what? Would it be more than I had before I signed?

 

Let's say Carrie Underwood grossed the 39 mil. in a year we talked about earlier. Let's say she only gets 1%, which is likely far less than reality. That still translates to 390 k in a year, or $32,500 a month, which is far and away better than anything I could possibly do slugging it out playing bars, plugging a MySpace site and mailng out CDs out on my own. Would I not then be exploiting the opportunity afforded me by AI should I qualify for it?

 

The fact is, everyone looking to sign with a label is looking for a mutual exploitation deal to one degree or another. The only issue is to what degree.

[Jotown]

 

Let's say Carrie Underwood grossed the 39 mil. in a year we talked about earlier. Let's say she only gets 1%, which is likely far less than reality. That still translates to 390 k in a year, or $32,500 a month, which is far and away better than anything I could possibly do slugging it out playing bars, plugging a MySpace site and mailng out CDs out on my own.

It is very doubtful that she is taking home $32,500 a month at this time. AI owns her and gets a huge part of all of her gross revenues before she see's a dime.

 

I am not saying that anyone put a gun to her head...... but come on?

 

When she signed that contract she had no value and no bargaining power. It will be 3 or four years before she will be in any position to renegotiate. For most artists that is their entire recording career with a major label.

[BlueStrat]

 

It is very doubtful that she is taking home $32,500 a month at this time. AI owns her and gets a huge part of all of her gross revenues before she see's a dime. I am not saying that anyone put a gun to her head...... but come on? When she signed that contract she had no value and no bargaining power. It will be 3 or four years before she will be in any position to renegotiate. For most artists that is their entire recording career with a major label.

 

 

 

I doubt she's taking home 32k a month either. I'd bet it's at least 6 times that much. And I'd bet she's on a salary.

 

How much do you think she's getting? I'd be surprised if she's getting less than 10%.

 

Here's an article I found, which is not flattering for AI, but even they don't accuse Fuller and AI of taking more than half.

 

'Idol' winners aren't singing all the way to the bank

By RODNEY HO

Cox News Service

Posted: June 1, 2004

Los Angeles - "American Idol" is a monstrous moneymaker - for creator Simon Fuller, for the judges, for Fox, for virtually anyone who touches it.

 

But Fantasia Barrino won't call all the shots as the new "American Idol." Her manager, the show's creator, can tell her where to perform and what to wear - all while taking 25% to 50% of her earnings.

 

"Idol" producer 19 Entertainment won't talk about the details of the contracts finalists must sign, and it won't let contestants talk about them, either.

 

But some who've seen them say this much is clear: 19 exercises greater control over the careers of its stars and takes a bigger chunk of their earnings than do typical managers. Fantasia Barrino's career as the new "American Idol" won't quite be her own. Fuller, the man behind 19, can tell her where to appear, what to record, even how to dress.

 

And according to The Associated Press, he'll take 25% to 50% of all her earnings, significantly more than the 15% to 20% most managers collect.

 

But then, Fuller is no ordinary manager.

 

Ordinary managers function as personal assistants and advisers, taking care of travel and recording arrangements and helping artists make major business decisions. Many also possess important industry connections that can jump-start careers, but they don't have the "Idol" machine at their disposal.

 

The price to play

Fuller exacts a heavy price, but he can turn his clients into stars before they even step into the recording studio. He can guarantee them (the winners, anyway) a contract with a major label. He can bring them back in later seasons to promote their albums in front of 20 million or so viewers.

 

As Atlanta entertainment attorney Monica Ewing, who hasn't seen the "Idol" contracts but is familiar with some of their details, said, nothing "even comes close to 'American Idol' when it comes to marketing and promotion. The exposure for one of the show's one-hit wonders far outpaces most seasoned artists out there. In a struggling music industry, they've cracked the code."

 

And so you don't hear many public complaints from the big three - first season winner Kelly Clarkson, second season winner Ruben Studdard and second season runner-up Clay Aiken - who among them have sold more than 6 million albums, according to Nielsen SoundScan. (Still, there have been published reports of creative clashes among Studdard, Aiken and Fuller and their respective labels.)

 

Studdard, whose album "Soulful" has sold about 1.7 million copies in the United States, said he's doing just fine.

 

"I'm in a good place financially," he said. "Most new artists don't have this many ways to make money - your own album, compilation album, the 'American Idols' tour, our own tour, on and on. I'm happy. Real happy."

 

Also happy is first-season contestant Tamyra Gray, whose album came out on a label 19 created just for her after her pairing with J Records fell apart.

 

"I couldn't ask for a greater company to be under."

 

A sour note

On the other hand, first season runner-up Justin Guarini has complained bitterly about his treatment by Fuller. 19 and RCA signed and then dropped him after his record sold only 140,000 copies. He has said that the companies forced him to record songs he hated, then abandoned him when the record didn't sell.

 

"Mine was a real high-profile debacle, but there are a lot of others who felt the sting of this monolith, who were used and chucked," Guarini told Entertainment Weekly in March. " 'American Idol' is one of those things where you have to realize that you're being used for entertainment, and you better use it back."

 

When the original contract for "Idol" finalists leaked onto the Internet in 2002, many entertainment lawyers were aghast. It included broad language allowing 19 to record and reveal information about the contestant of a "personal, private, intimate, surprising, defamatory, disparaging, embarrassing and unfavorable nature, that may be factual and/or fictional," according to a story on Salon.com.

 

If contestants revealed any of the terms and conditions of the contract, they could be sued for $5 million. And, according to Salon, it stipulated that the winner had to participate in a "World Idol" competition for a payday of only $1,400.

 

One person's junk . . .

Gary Fine, a Los Angeles entertainment attorney, said a contestant showed him that first "Idol" contract, and he recommended that the contestant pass.

 

Now he says the contract could work for certain types of acts.

 

"If I had an artist whose music was quirky and might take time to develop, then Simon's organization is not the one I would recommend getting involved with," Fine said. "On the other hand, if I have a client whose primary interest is fame and fortune, then Simon's organization is certainly worth considering."

 

Entertainment lawyer Kenneth Freundlich also has softened his position.

 

"I came out of the box very antagonistic" about the "Idol" contract, said Freundlich, who has seen contracts for the first two "Idols" but not the current one. "I thought it was exploiting people who are very vulnerable in their own lives and trying to get ahead."

 

But Freundlich, who has represented acts such as Spacehog and the Spin Doctors, said he's since modified his views because "Idol" has been so successful while the music industry has suffered.

 

"If clients come to me and have this contract now, it's a little different conversation than I was having," he said. "Five years ago, you had alternatives, . . . as a lawyer with a group you believed in, you felt powerful. Now there aren't as many doors to knock on."

 

He noted that television is playing an increasingly important role in building artists. Josh Groban, for instance, used appearances on "Ally McBeal" and "Oprah" to become a multimillion seller, despite minimal radio airplay.

 

An even trade?

Given the industry slump (CD sales dropped nearly 20% from 2000 to 2003), ceding more money and more creative control in exchange for almost guaranteed short-term success may not be such a bad deal - especially when you consider that the industry already has a notorious reputation for taking financial advantage of its stars.

 

Record companies like to lock budding stars into multi-album contracts that pay about $1 per CD, and then take a portion of that dollar to pay for producing music videos and concert tours. In Donald Passman's book "All You Need to Know About the Music Business," he presents a hypothetical in which a band sells 500,000 albums and nets only about $40,000 - and that's before a manager takes his cut.

 

Fuller, who also managed the Spice Girls and Annie Lennox, has said he's just making his clients' business lives simpler.

 

"There could be 10 different people dealing with different areas of your life. This is one-stop shopping," he told The Associated Press.

 

Sonia Murray of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution contributed to this report

[Jotown]

How much do you think she's getting? I'd be surprised if she's getting less than 10%. Here's an article I found, which is not flattering for AI, but even they don't accuse Fuller and AI of taking more than half.

 

'Idol' winners aren't singing all the way to the bank Los Angeles - "American Idol" is a monstrous moneymaker - for creator Simon Fuller, for the judges, for Fox, for virtually anyone who touches it. And according to The Associated Press, he'll take 25% to 50% of all her earnings , significantly more than the 15% to 20% most managers collect.

Please note that Fuller gets his 50% off of the gross so that cuts that 39 million in half. Then there are publicist and agents and others who get a cut as well.

 

All of the tour expenses come out of that 39 million and on a tour of Underwoods scale those expenses could be 70% to 80% of the gross!!!

 

Do the math and you will see why these numbers shrink quickly.

 

Now I don't care of AI contestants are exploited, and I hope they all live happily ever after in big mansions. But those who are familiar with these things will tell you that the reality of the music biz is much different than the hype you see on Cribs (or AI)

 

99 out of a hundred people with a hit early in their career wind up with very little; thats just the way it is. History will show us how the AI top tens fare in 10 or 15 years. But I will bet you that most of them will not be set for life after the early glow of their AI success becomes a fading memory.

[Scafeets]

 

If Carrie Underwood is suffering, she's crying all te way to the bank. Trust me. Even if the contract she has is total {censored}, she's still miles ahead, both financially and publicity-wise, than most guys signed to major labels. I'd take exploitation like that any day of the week.

 

 

Yo betcha. AI sure isn't my cuppa tea, but what musician or singer in their right mind wouldn't make that deal? The kind of exposure you get from AI would cost several million dollars in RECOUPABLE promo expenditures from a label.

 

Even if contestants agree to get paid a dime on a dollar, they're being shot out of a cannon. If they don't come out ahead financially, it's because they sent the $$ up their nose or did something else on an equally grand scale of stupidity.

[BlueStrat]

Please note that Fuller gets his 50% off of the gross so that cuts that 39 million in half. Then there are publicist and agents and others who get a cut as well. All of the tour expenses come out of that 39 million and on a tour of Underwoods scale those expenses could be 70% to 80% of the gross!!! Do the math and you will see why these numbers shrink quickly. Now I don't care of AI contestants are exploited, and I hope they all live happily ever after in big mansions. But those who are familiar with these things will tell you that the reality of the music biz is much different than the hype you see on Cribs (or AI) 99 out of a hundred people with a hit early in their career wind up with very little; thats just the way it is. History will show us how the AI top tens fare in 10 or 15 years. But I will bet you that most of them will not be set for life after the early glow of their AI success becomes a fading memory.

 

Wait a minute. You just said you doubt she's getting the one percent I used in an illustration. Now, you're saying she's hosed if she's getting 20%(which, by the way, would be $7, 800.000 this year, 10 mil next year if she makes the 50 mil+ gross she's projected to. Even if her publicist and agents got half of that, she'd still be getting a quite decent income). Like I said before, 10 or 20% of a whole bunch is a lot more than 80 percent of nothing.

 

As far as touring, people like Underwood may well have 80 % of their tour eaten up by expenses. But she will earn a ton of money on volume alone and the high price she can command for ticket prices. And even if she did have 80% eaten up by expenses, that's still 20% of a top grossing tour. When I was on the road, a very small scale touring band for 3 and a half years, we lived on about 30% of what we made split 4 ways. Not much, we were making about 1600 to 1800 a week, but we survived.

 

Why do you have a hard time believeing that maybe, just maybe, these guys are doing better than you want to believe they are, especially when most of them themselves (except for Justing Guarini, whoses failure ought to be self explanatory) say they're doing fine, and other entertainment lawyers and agents say it isn't as bad a they thought it might be either?

 

Come to think of it, why do I care?

 

One thing is sure: it's not something either of us will have to worry about!

[Jotown]

Bluestrat: 70% to 80% plus 25% to 50% can add up to as much as 130%!!!!

 

Which means the tour could even have a deficit to her even if it gross's 39 million!?

 

What about this do you not understand?

[BlueStrat]

Bluestrat: 70% to 80% plus 25% to 50% can add up to as much as 130%!!!! Which means the tour could even have a deficit to her even if it gross's 39 million!? What about this do you not understand?

 

 

And all these AI guys touring say they're doing well financially. What is it about this YOU don't understand?

No offense, but I think you're pulling stuff out of your ass here and it isn't based on any real world experience. Or do you think these guys are 'paying to play' at the highest level? What management company is going to last very long if their artists are running a deficit to tour? That's what it would be in your scenario. If you think Carrie Underwood is paying to play, you're delusional. Her management is likely getting 50%, but in her case, management includes recording, tour management, publicity, booking, etc etc (from the article: "Fuller, who also managed the Spice Girls and Annie Lennox, has said he's just making his clients' business lives simpler."There could be 10 different people dealing with different areas of your life. This is one-stop shopping," he told The Associated Press.) In other words, she's paying 50% for the services of multiple companies that she would need if she were signed with a standard record deal, which is far different than a total management deal. There isn't any 50% added to a fictional 80%.

 

 

Yeah, a lot of bands lose money on their records. Most of the bigger ones make it up on tours. It's how they pay the record company back, unless they have a contract that states recoupable monies are only to come out of sales and royalties. If they can't pay back the costs of the record, it means they aren't selling and will get dropped.

 

Again, and I say this sincerely, no offense intended, but you don't seem to have much of an understanding of working with agents or management companies. I don't know what else to say here.

 

Guess we'll just have to disagree.

*shrugs*

[joie]

 

Wait a minute. You just said you doubt she's getting the one percent I used in an illustration. Now, you're saying she's hosed if she's getting 20%(which, by the way, would be $7, 800.000 this year, 10 mil next year if she makes the 50 mil+ gross she's projected to.... Like I said before, 10 or 20% of a whole bunch is a lot more than 80 percent of nothing. !

 

 

Is'nt this all a MOOT point??

 

When it comes to American Idol, Even if they paid the winner 6.50 hr minimum wage,

 

You'd still have 1000's line up who'd gladly take IT!!.

[BlueStrat]

 

Is'nt this all a MOOT point?? When it comes to American Idol, Even if they paid the winner 6.50 hr minimum wage, You'd still have 1000's line up who'd gladly take IT!!.

 

 

:DTrue dat.

[Jotown]

Yeah, a lot of bands lose money on their records. Most of the bigger ones make it up on tours. It's how they pay the record company back, unless they have a contract that states recoupable monies are only to come out of sales and royalties. If they can't pay back the costs of the record, it means they aren't selling and will get dropped. Again, and I say this sincerely, no offense intended, but you don't seem to have much of an understanding of working with agents or management companies. I don't know what else to say here.

I have two questions for you:

 

Have you ever had a record deal?

 

Have you ever had to tour to support a CD?

 

If the answer to either of these questions is no then you would be the one who is pulling stuff out of your a$$ here. You have a view if the industry that is much more fantasy than reality. You clearly have no experience or expretise here.

 

But carry on.

 

As they say; ignorance is bliss.

 

No offense of course.

[BlueStrat]

I have two questions for you: Have you ever had a record deal? Have you ever had to tour to support a CD?

 

Yes, and yes, in the 80s, but on a much smaller scale than a Carrie Underwood. And it was vinyl, not a CD. But I did have management, I had legal representation, and I have a pretty good idea how it works based on experience. And I can assure you that while I didn't get rich, the first job of management is to make sure the client is making money, so that they themselves can continue to get paid. Had I ran a deficit when I was playing back then, I could not possibly have continued to push a band down the road, and I would have had to quit, meaning the agency and the attorneys would have lost money, not to mention the record company. Turns out the record company folded anyway, because of poor management and the inability to secure distribution deals that amounted to anything. But I was on the road full time, 320+ days a year, for almost four years, doing 6 western states and 3 Canadian provinces.

 

Since then, I have produced 4 more CDs, starting in 1995, and have turned down record deals because I have a family and don't care to live on the road. I've gotten decent reviews from national magazines, opened for lots of heavyweight headliners (at least in the blues and jazz world), played tons of larger festivals, and so on. I have posted my links and my website. Where are yours?

 

I went as far as I wanted to as a married guy with kids at home. Think what you want about me. If you want to think I am some inexperienced kid who can't know anything because I didn't go big time, well... so be it. *shrugs again* You're suffering from the same popular culture logical fallacy that says if you aren't a woman, you can't know anything about abortion, or if you don't have draft-age kids, you can't have an opinion on the war, etc etc. I'll be the first to admit, experience doesn't justify everything. However, experience + logic + knowledge helps.

 

 

How about you? On what experience do you base your belief that a big time agency would allow their top-drawing clients to operate at a deficit, or that the client's lawyer would allow them to even sign such a contract? You don't have to have experience to see the inconsistency in your logic.

 

Now YOU carry on in your 'ignorant bliss'. Maybe you need to believe that none of the AI people are making a dime to justify your own lack of achievement. I don't get why you're so convinced they live such a horrible existence. No matter. I'm done arguing with you.

It's like trying to explain physics to a fence post.

 

I wish you all the best.

 

BTW, you can type the word 'ass' here. You don't need to use those annoying dollar signs.

[Jotown]

For the record Bluestrat; I have made my living in the music business for 30 years. I have put both of my kids though private school and college sriting, recording and performing music; thank you very much.

 

Name calling and insults do not prove anything; but the do give one the perception of ignorance when reading your posts. To insult someone and then "wish them all the best" is about as lame as it gets.

 

I hope your song lyrics are more sincere than your posts.

 

Have a good day.