Members Poker Posted July 13, 2006 Members Posted July 13, 2006 Thanks to you guys... I guess its better this way. Seems no one is able to make money at all, even to only survive...
Members Gregg Hall Posted July 13, 2006 Members Posted July 13, 2006 Originally posted by Poker Thanks to you guys... I guess its better this way. Seems no one is able to make money at all, even to only survive... You can read and apply a book called how I make 100,000 thousand dollars a year in the music business.
Members jose canseco Posted July 13, 2006 Members Posted July 13, 2006 I think it's better to just write and play music for fun. If you are doing it with enough heart and soul, the rest will follow...
Members gtrbass Posted July 13, 2006 Members Posted July 13, 2006 Having been someone who actually did make a living off music at one time, I would agree that it's now about making a starving, not a living. I knew a drummer who was in a signed metal band back in the mid '80's. He was later in another popular band in Hollywood that was always a "bridesmaid, but never a bride". He hustled harder than just about anyone I knew. He eventually got married, left LA and went to work for some sort of company as a sales rep, selling commercial/industrial valves or something. I saw him a few years later and he was doing quite well. He was a top earner in the company making a mid-six figure salary. He had a big house, a Benz, the whole nine yards. He told me that he simply applied the same drive he had in trying to get signed and make it as a musician. He said "if you apply even half the energy you do trying to make it in music in some other industry, you're probably going to outshine everyone. It's way easier and way more lucrative in anything other than music." Based on his assessment I went back to school for something other than music. (I already had a music degree.) That was in 1991. I never regretted the decision. Music is my passion. I make the majority of my living by other means. Am I an amateur? Nope, not by a longshot. There are a lot of guys like me. Very few make enough to live well and have a nice retirement solely from their efforts in music.
Members Beachbum Posted July 13, 2006 Members Posted July 13, 2006 Good post, makes a lost of sense, gtrbass. While I don't think someone should give up entirely on making money with their music I do think the primary focus might be better directed toward enjoyment in doing something you love. Like, there's money to be made, but not in the quantities we desire, so we keep doing it because we love it? (That's pretty much me.)
Members gtrbass Posted July 13, 2006 Members Posted July 13, 2006 Originally posted by Beachbum Like, there's money to be made, but not in the quantities we desire, so we keep doing it because we love it?(That's pretty much me.) That's me too. If there is any money to be made, it will go in my pocket rather than some other hustler. I have the knowledge, technical and financial resources to make my own records, get them mfg'd, and promote them on a small-ish scale. There is nothing any tiny bedroom label can do for most of us that we can't do for ourselves so long as you have the expertise and business intelligence and realistic expectations. I know that many of us posting here have those same abilities, so I'm hardly unique. If you can generate a self-sustaining enterprise out of your music, you are ahead of 90% of those participating in the DIY/indie world. If you are making enough profit to live decently off it, you are yet again in another exclusive club. None of that is a measure of your talent, just your business skill and good fortune.
Members Gregg Hall Posted July 14, 2006 Members Posted July 14, 2006 Originally posted by gtrbass Having been someone who actually did make a living off music at one time, I would agree that it's now about making a starving, not a living.I knew a drummer who was in a signed metal band back in the mid '80's. He was later in another popular band in Hollywood that was always a "bridesmaid, but never a bride". He hustled harder than just about anyone I knew. He eventually got married, left LA and went to work for some sort of company as a sales rep, selling commercial/industrial valves or something. I saw him a few years later and he was doing quite well. He was a top earner in the company making a mid-six figure salary. He had a big house, a Benz, the whole nine yards. He told me that he simply applied the same drive he had in trying to get signed and make it as a musician. He said "if you apply even half the energy you do trying to make it in music in some other industry, you're probably going to outshine everyone. It's way easier and way more lucrative in anything other than music." Based on his assessment I went back to school for something other than music. (I already had a music degree.) That was in 1991. I never regretted the decision. Music is my passion. I make the majority of my living by other means. Am I an amateur? Nope, not by a longshot. There are a lot of guys like me. Very few make enough to live well and have a nice retirement solely from their efforts in music. Would you give the same advice to an innovator?
Members Gregg Hall Posted July 14, 2006 Members Posted July 14, 2006 Originally posted by gtrbass That's me too. If there is any money to be made, it will go in my pocket rather than some other hustler. I have the knowledge, technical and financial resources to make my own records, get them mfg'd, and promote them on a small-ish scale. There is nothing any tiny bedroom label can do for most of us that we can't do for ourselves so long as you have the expertise and business intelligence and realistic expectations. I know that many of us posting here have those same abilities, so I'm hardly unique. If you can generate a self-sustaining enterprise out of your music, you are ahead of 90% of those participating in the DIY/indie world. If you are making enough profit to live decently off it, you are yet again in another exclusive club. None of that is a measure of your talent, just your business skill and good fortune. What advice would you give to those without business intelligence?
Members gtrbass Posted July 14, 2006 Members Posted July 14, 2006 Let me preface this by stating that I know I am probably opening a BIG can of worms here... I am a strategic analyst (among other things) in a major academic healthcare enterprise. It is a big business where I have learned a great deal about "business". I am also a musician who has struggled with a career where at one time I was a moderately successful studio player. I am still a performer, and an engineer with commercial studio operation that is profitable. I learned a whole lot about business through those endeavors as well. My advice to those without a business intelligence background is simple (and hard) acquire it. There are many books on the subject worth reading. One particularly helpful book is Sun Tzu's the art of war. One of the most educational things I can possibly recommend is a documentary called Won't Anybody Listen? They show it on IFC occasionally and you can get a DVD of it through http://www.anybodylisten.com/ This isn't a movie about a big famous rock band and how they made it. It's about you, me, and the guys in a band called NC-17. Prepare yourself because it's a sledgehammer dose of reality. Extremely valuable information there. If anything, it will teach you that you must choose to be the master of your destiny. I think step one is to develop a common sense philosophy. This is harder than it looks to the uninitiated. Don't buy into any of the hype. Music is a business where the principles of business apply, although many think it doesn't. Because arts and entertainment is filled with creative people who are often focused on dreams, there are unrealistic expectations and great ignorance. There are many "sharks" and scammers out there because it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Low rent scammers are easy to spot. Sophisticated ones can often disguise their intentions very well. Every musician started out as a fan. We loved it so much we began to participate in it. Hardly anyone ever becomes a musician because it's a lucrative, stable career path. (Mom & dad would generally prefer you go to medical school or law school instead.) Because of this great passion and deep desire, everyone thinks that their creativity is deserving of wide recognition. As a result the world is litered with people who bet the farm and lost. Sometimes its because they got screwed. Most of the timne its because they screwed themselves. Some "business" mantras for success: Know that you are balancing creativity with commerce, and those whose primary focus is commerce will generally care less about the creative side, no matter what they claim. Know that if it doesn't have an immediate financial benefit, it just might not be a good idea after all. Really "excited" business people are dangerous. It is a red flag. Always recognize that the guy taking a mile a minute from the get go and trying to "sell you" something is a walking infomercial. He is merely trying to reel you in to some scheme. Relationships in any kind of business can be viewed like personal romantic relationships. If the other party is working you to "seal the deal" in short order, you are about to get f*cked. It will be a one night stand. The party who is very tentative in the beginning and wants to take it slow more than likely wants to have a long term relationship. Have a five year plan. Have goals that are attainable based on the resources you have available. Be prepared to modify your plans and goals as time goes by. Forget about how is insanely wealth, and how he/she got there. There are critical details to the story that are never public knowledge. Learn to make one dollar, then 100, then 1,000, and the 100,000, and so on. The steps are usually the same, just the numbers get larger. (So do the risks.) You must learn to repeat financial success on a small scale before you can repeat it on a grand scale. Keep it legal learn what business licenses you need, copyright and tradmarks, and shield your ASSets with a corporation or LLC. If all else fails like the late great Warren Zevon said "Bring Lawers, guns and money."
Members Kingnome Posted July 14, 2006 Members Posted July 14, 2006 Originally posted by Poker Thanks to you guys... I guess its better this way. Seems no one is able to make money at all, even to only survive... Well, we kind of like it that way... It's kinda like we're all just sitting around the Motor Vehicle Offices waiting for our number to be called. Occasionally somebody does get called, but mostly we just sit around and talk about why we're here, and how come the system can't help, and the kids today don't understand, and I even brought proof-of-citizenship... We know it's silly, but we can't leave now... It's too late for that.
Members BlueStrat Posted July 14, 2006 Members Posted July 14, 2006 My advice to those without a business intelligence background is simple (and hard) acquire it. What? You mean you aren't born with it? (j/k) Great post!
Members Poker Posted July 14, 2006 Author Members Posted July 14, 2006 I'm really looking for a part time job I like to make money... I have a degree but I'm kind of bored of my old job, and I'd like to have a part time job = more time for music. I just don't know what to do!
Members Blackwatch Posted July 15, 2006 Members Posted July 15, 2006 One of the most educational things I can possibly recommend is a documentary called Won't Anybody Listen? I watched the trailer.....a bit depressing....I felt right at home.......
Members Beachbum Posted July 15, 2006 Members Posted July 15, 2006 Originally posted by gtrbass Really "excited" business people are dangerous. It is a red flag. Always recognize that the guy taking a mile a minute from the get go and trying to "sell you" something is a walking infomercial. He is merely trying to reel you in to some scheme. So true.
Members Gregg Hall Posted July 15, 2006 Members Posted July 15, 2006 Really "excited" business people are dangerous. It is a red flag. Always recognize that the guy taking a mile a minute from the get go and trying to "sell you" something is a walking infomercial. He is merely trying to reel you in to some scheme. Ha! Reminds me of these guys who tried to sell me stolen stereo equipment out of a van.
Members BlueStrat Posted July 15, 2006 Members Posted July 15, 2006 Originally posted by Gregg Hall Really "excited" business people are dangerous. It is a red flag. Always recognize that the guy taking a mile a minute from the get go and trying to "sell you" something is a walking infomercial. He is merely trying to reel you in to some scheme. Ha! Reminds me of these guys who tried to sell me stolen stereo equipment out of a van. You do realize there's a quote button at the bottom of each post, don't you? Quotes make it easier to read your responses. I'm just sayin'...
Members Kuhnfyoozed Posted July 22, 2006 Members Posted July 22, 2006 Originally posted by gtrbass Some "business" mantras for success: Know that you are balancing creativity with commerce, and those whose primary focus is commerce will generally care less about the creative side, no matter what they claim. Know that if it doesn't have an immediate financial benefit, it just might not be a good idea after all. Really "excited" business people are dangerous. It is a red flag. Always recognize that the guy taking a mile a minute from the get go and trying to "sell you" something is a walking infomercial. He is merely trying to reel you in to some scheme. Relationships in any kind of business can be viewed like personal romantic relationships. If the other party is working you to "seal the deal" in short order, you are about to get f*cked. It will be a one night stand. The party who is very tentative in the beginning and wants to take it slow more than likely wants to have a long term relationship. Have a five year plan. Have goals that are attainable based on the resources you have available. Be prepared to modify your plans and goals as time goes by. Forget about how is insanely wealth, and how he/she got there. There are critical details to the story that are never public knowledge. Learn to make one dollar, then 100, then 1,000, and the 100,000, and so on. The steps are usually the same, just the numbers get larger. (So do the risks.) You must learn to repeat financial success on a small scale before you can repeat it on a grand scale. Keep it legal learn what business licenses you need, copyright and tradmarks, and shield your ASSets with a corporation or LLC. If all else fails like the late great Warren Zevon said "Bring Lawers, guns and money." Great post, gtrbass! The Warren Zevon quote is the cherry on top
Members Blackwatch Posted July 23, 2006 Members Posted July 23, 2006 Originally posted by gtrbass Really "excited" business people are dangerous. It is a red flag. Always recognize that the guy taking a mile a minute from the get go and trying to "sell you" something is a walking infomercial. He is merely trying to reel you in to some scheme. Kinda like the guy who tells you to pay to play....
Members Goo Posted July 23, 2006 Members Posted July 23, 2006 The real question for a musician is not "how much will I earn" but "how much will I lose".
Members Stackabones Posted July 23, 2006 Members Posted July 23, 2006 Would an individual having a hard time in the music biz also have a hard time running a small biz? Aren't most music businesses (bands, teaching studios, solo performers) small businesses?
Members BlueStrat Posted July 24, 2006 Members Posted July 24, 2006 Originally posted by Stackabones Would an individual having a hard time in the music biz also have a hard time running a small biz?Aren't most music businesses (bands, teaching studios, solo performers) small businesses? Yes, except that the music business demands performance talents as well as business smarts. Usually, anyway.
Moderators daddymack Posted July 24, 2006 Moderators Posted July 24, 2006 Originally posted by Stackabones Would an individual having a hard time in the music biz also have a hard time running a small biz?Aren't most music businesses (bands, teaching studios, solo performers) small businesses? Different essential skillsets...IMHO.Running a band is not the same as teaching music, either. There is a great quote by Hunter S. Thompson regarding the music business "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs every day. And there's also a bad side." Running a business is not the same as running a band operation, for instance. The reasonable practices of normal business fall away when dealing with the hangers-on, wannabes, club bookers, bar managers, promoters, etc...most of whom have no real background, education or training in anything except getting something cheaply....you are dealing with essentially either the dregs of society, or the stuff from which the dregs were strained. The concept of putting things in writing scares the bejeebus out of most of these people, and the ones who aren't scared by it for the most part are too stupid to be. As I told one of my band mates a few years ago when I handed him the booking duties for our band "If I had to do this for a living, I'd kill myself!" Do I sound negative? After over thirty years, I'm still doing it...and it isn't about the money....believe me.
Members bowmag701 Posted July 27, 2006 Members Posted July 27, 2006 You can always cook hamburgers, Ah do you want fries with that?
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