bass drum: ported vs. non ported?

[Sordid1]

Just curious since my new drummer doesn't have his ported and it sounds awesome! Just curious as to if we do a port on the front head if it is going to change the sound for the worse. Secondly, if he doesn't port it are there any issues as far as micing live?

[Dark Ice]

Have a read of this thread from the live sound forum:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=932091

The thread presents both sides of the arguement - its quite in depth, a good read on the subject...But to summarise, its quite evident that soundguys hate them because they dont sound as good as a ported kick when miced, or, they're a huge pain in the ass to get a decent sound from. That is without resorting to sneakily triggering the drum.

 

Steve.

[Sordid1]

 

Originally posted by Dark Ice Have a read of this thread from the live sound forum: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=932091 The thread presents both sides of the arguement - its quite in depth, a good read on the subject...But to summarise, its quite evident that soundguys hate them because they dont sound as good as a ported kick when miced, or, they're a huge pain in the ass to get a decent sound from. That is without resorting to sneakily triggering the drum. Steve.

 

 

Thanks, that was what I was worried about!

[YellowSnow]

Originally posted by Sordid1 Thanks, that was what I was worried about!

 

I have no idea what you drum types are talking about....

 

But - can you buy pre-ported heads to fit Jason's kick? The non-ported drum is sweet at rehearsal, but what would it run me to pick him up a ported head just in case when we go to record the sound isn't up to snuff? Heck - I'd foot the bill, provided it's not gonna be like 300 bucks or anything.

 

Anybody know?

 

Thanks

Jeff

[Dark Slide]

Originally posted by YellowSnow I have no idea what you drum types are talking about.... But - can you buy pre-ported heads to fit Jason's kick? The non-ported drum is sweet at rehearsal, but what would it run me to pick him up a ported head just in case when we go to record the sound isn't up to snuff? Heck - I'd foot the bill, provided it's not gonna be like 300 bucks or anything. Anybody know? Thanks Jeff

 

It depends on what you get, but usually $30-$40 give or take.

[Ignited]

You don't even have to go out and buy a new head. Look for something called a Holz ring. Basically, it's a kit that you buy that will let you put a hole in the drum head that you already have. You just stick it on the drum head and then CAREFULLY cut out the circle with a razor blade. After you've made your hole, just snap the ring on and you're ready to go. It's looks pretty cool once it's on, too.

 

It's actually incredibly easy to do and will save you some money. I've done it several times and never had a problem.

[Dark Ice]

 

Originally posted by YellowSnow The non-ported drum is sweet at rehearsal, but what would it run me to pick him up a ported head just in case when we go to record the sound isn't up to snuff?

 

 

A ported kick drum not only sounds but feels different to a non ported kick drum...theres more into about that in the link I posted. He might not be happy playing with a ported head at all.

How would you like it if someone came along and told you you had to play this telecaster with 12 gauge strings and an extra thick neck after a lifetime of playing on Jacksons with 8 gauge strings?

 

Theres always options for mounting a mike inside the drum.

 

Steve.

[Sordid1]

Originally posted by YellowSnow I have no idea what you drum types are talking about.... But - can you buy pre-ported heads to fit Jason's kick? The non-ported drum is sweet at rehearsal, but what would it run me to pick him up a ported head just in case when we go to record the sound isn't up to snuff? Heck - I'd foot the bill, provided it's not gonna be like 300 bucks or anything. Anybody know? Thanks Jeff

 

Jeff, they are about $30. From everyone I have talked to and with past drummers not porting the front head causes a lot of issues especially recording and live because it's hard to get a good sound out of it. It's one of those industry standard things where almost everyone ports the head for micing. BTW, porting it shouldn't affect the tone much and it will make it louder. I agree that getting the holz thing for $10 would be a better idea, we could have it ported in under ten minutes.

[Drumr]

Before cutting a hole, try micing the kick from the batter side. I put a 57 or an Audix D6 just at the top of my pedal frame, about 2" from the head aimed right at it and got a great sound.

 

I am running thru a Bose PAS PA. This micing proceedure was mentioned in a post from a Bose tech and I could not believe it would sound good, so I tried it and it was very good and easy.

 

Might not work for you in your situation but I would try it out. A head without a hole is so much nicer for the drummer.

 

P

[Sordid1]

Thanks, unfortunately I don't think we will have a chance to try that out until it's too late! I know for the drummer they get a better feel and sound back there without the port, but I don't think either are huge as long as the port isn't too big.

[richiejazz]

This is a never ending problem. I never used to have a hole in my front head and a couple of techs moaned a bit, then one guy really got out of his pram about it!!!! I did get a hole eventually (mainly because I was just curious) and it aint too bad considering i dont play much jazz anymore i mostly play funk/rock gigs so the pucnchier sound is appropriate. however it now sounds like its hitting a brick wall when its not micked so......

Do different sized holes make a big difference?????

 

Basically (and i know ill get stick for this) we all know that a large proportion of techies have large chips on their shoulders. and in the end hole or no hole wouldnt matter if the guy was doing his job properly. From repeated discussions with professional drummers and good sound techs, having an issue with drummers who do not have holes in their bass drums boils down to sloppy and lazy sound engineering.

[Zeromus-X]

 

Originally posted by richiejazz Basically (and i know ill get stick for this) we all know that a large proportion of techies have large chips on their shoulders. and in the end hole or no hole wouldnt matter if the guy was doing his job properly. From repeated discussions with professional drummers and good sound techs, having an issue with drummers who do not have holes in their bass drums boils down to sloppy and lazy sound engineering.

 

 

Unless you're playing pro-level stadium shows, you can't expect the $150-a-night soundguys to know everything there is to know or have all the tools required to do everything. If you don't have a hole in your kick, maybe you're going to have to spend more for a soundman who knows what they're doing.

 

It was said by someone at Live Sound that if you're doing anything nonstandard, you should come with the tools to make your kit work with the soundguy's system. I find this to be 100% true. If you want no hole in your kick, fine... but be prepared with mics for your kick in advance, and let the soundguy know that you'll be using them so they know what to do EQ-wise. Similarly, if you were a guitarist and showed up with some crazy tri-amped setup, or a bassist who uses sub-bass frequency effects, you'd be expected to come with the tools to make your rig work with the PA, too.

 

It's not that the soundguy is being lazy and sloppy; it's that you're expecting something that isn't the norm, and so many people will be unprepared for it... and rightfully so.

[Drumr]

Richie,

 

I find the bigger the hole, the more "brick wall". I have a 22x18" with a small hole and a 20x16" with the big hole. However, since adding EMAD batter heads, the issue is less bothersome.

 

Zeromus...great post...true.

[Old Steve]

Originally posted by Dark Ice Have a read of this thread from the live sound forum: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=932091 The thread presents both sides of the arguement - its quite in depth, a good read on the subject...

 

Gotta agree. If you haven't read this post, do so. It really does a great job of presenting both sides without devolving into some kind of "soundguys suck"/"drummers are morons" kind of shouting match....and I'm not just saying so because I posted all over it .

 

To me it comes down to the whole "teamwork" concept and the fact that any "team" is only as stong as its weakest link. A "team" learns to compensate for each others' weaknesses and accentuate each others' stengths in order to accomplish more than they could as individuals.

 

In a band, the "team" is trying to present the best possible OVERALL sound to the audience. The OVERALL sound isn't necessarily each individual's best sound summed with everyone else's. Sometimes (often) you need to put your own personal preferences aside in order to make the overall sound better as each instrument carves out its own place in the mix.

 

The soundguy is an integral part of this team, and not just a guy working for the band. He's every bit as important as the lead guitarist or any other musician because he can impact the overall sound the most. If this soundguy is more comfortable getting good drum sound out of a ported kick, it makes sense for any drummer to consider this option. You need to weigh the importance of using a "non-standard" (a la Zeromus' post) head vs. the ability of the soundguy to do his best work.

 

Back to the team analogy: if a basketball player shoots best right handed, the team should design plays that put that shooter in a postion on the court where he can shoot comfortably. While it may be an option to try and teach the player to shoot better from the left, it's probably easier and more efficient to utilize the player's strengths (right handed shot) than to try to force development of his weaknesses (lefty) which will take longer to accomplish. Meanwhile, the right-handed player should work at developing his left handed shot so that once he's gained skills with it, the team can have more options in their playbook.

 

By the same token, a drummer should play to his soundguy's strengths (using a ported kick when necessary to get the best overall sound for the band). In the meantime, any soundguy should take the time to learn how to work with an un-ported kick. That way, when both "players" have both options available to them, and are equally adept at both options, the "team"/band has the ability to make decisions based purely on what will sound better in the "overall" sound.

[Sordid1]

thanks guys, I ended up putting a small 3 12" port in the front head and I think it actually sounds better. It still has the big warm sound it had but now it's got more cut to it as well. I didn't want to go too big because I didn't want to loose the warmth.

[Old Steve]

Originally posted by Sordid1 thanks guys, I ended up putting a small 3 12" port in the front head and I think it actually sounds better. It still has the big warm sound it had but now it's got more cut to it as well. I didn't want to go too big because I didn't want to loose the warmth.

 

Cool...3 1/2" isn't so big that it'll change the sound too drastically and you'll still get nice tone off of the front head. It's always a good policy to start with a small hole and then make it bigger if you want/need to. It can be difficult "uncut" a hole if you make it too big to start with.

[rca]

I let this thread pass initially because it has all been said before, but I felt compelled to respond finally:

 

 

Originally posted by Zeromus-X Unless you're playing pro-level stadium shows, you can't expect the $150-a-night soundguys to know everything there is to know or have all the tools required to do everything... It was said by someone at Live Sound that if you're doing anything nonstandard... It's not that the soundguy is being lazy and sloppy; it's that you're expecting something that isn't the norm, and so many people will be unprepared for it... and rightfully so.

 

 

Sorry I have to disagree with everything above. I run into this type of thinking a lot in my day job. People assume that the rest of the world works just like they do. Unported heads are just as "normal" as a ported head. And there is no such thing as a standard port either. If there were norms like you suggest, there would be no need to coordinate with venues ahead of time. That is not realistic.

 

As for drummers being prepared for the gig, I believe all drummers should be prepared, not just drummers with unported heads. I have ported and unported kicks, mics, stands, cords, and submixers ready to go should they be needed. And I know how to set them up and use them properly. I expect to need mics when my band supplies the PA, but not when the venue supplies the PA. But I can supply them if requested.

 

I think the real issue of concern to the drummer is who pays to replace the head, not should the head be ported. I definitely do not think the drummer should bear the expense of replacing a kick head that was ported to please a soundman. Especially if the head has graphic art which can cost over $100 to replace, this gets really expensive compared to normal earnings.

[Old Steve]

 

Originally posted by rca I let this thread pass initially because it has all been said before, but I felt compelled to respond finally: Sorry I have to disagree with everything above. I run into this type of thinking a lot in my day job. People assume that the rest of the world works just like they do. Unported heads are just as "normal" as a ported head. And there is no such thing as a standard port either. If there were norms like you suggest, there would be no need to coordinate with venues ahead of time. That is not realistic. As for drummers being prepared for the gig, I believe all drummers should be prepared, not just drummers with unported heads. I have ported and unported kicks, mics, stands, cords, and submixers ready to go should they be needed. And I know how to set them up and use them properly. I expect to need mics when my band supplies the PA, but not when the venue supplies the PA. But I can supply them if requested. I think the real issue of concern to the drummer is who pays to replace the head, not should the head be ported. I definitely do not think the drummer should bear the expense of replacing a kick head that was ported to please a soundman. Especially if the head has graphic art which can cost over $100 to replace, this gets really expensive compared to normal earnings.

 

 

The "standard" vs. "non-standard" thing actually has its origins in the post on the Live Audio board. I know the guy who wrote it (hee hee) so let me explain for him (although Zeromus was pretty on-the-mark).

 

From a "drummer's perspective" there is no "standard". A drum can be played either way, just as there's no "standard kit configuration". From a soundguy's perspective, however, there are "standards" or "norms" that are basically just "what most people do". It's not a value judgement, but just the overriding trend. The overriding trend is for the hi-hat to be placed on the left side of the kit, so a soundguy doing a multi-band club gig would probably put the hi-hat mic and mic stand on that side of the drum riser as the kits come on and off the stage. If some guy showed up and played lefty, with the hi-hats on the right side of the kit, it would be "non-standard" from the soundguy's perspective, and he'd have to move the mic and possibly re-route the cables.

 

Nowadays, the "norm" or "standard" in club-level gigs seems to be to have a hole in the kick drum head. As a result, a low-end soundguy might have little or no experience working with an unported head because it's just not done that much at the bar/club level. From a soundguy perspective, especially from the perspective of guys who work in small clubs and have to deal with all kinds of high stage noise on small stages, a hole in the front head (no matter how big...as long as it's big enough to accommodate a mic) is "standard". The hole is less about resonance and more about trying to find a place to put the mic where a.) it's close to the beater/batter head impact point, and b.) it's somewhat protected from the noise happening all around the kit on stage.

 

As for accommodating to this need/desire of soundguys, it's great that you've got the gear and knowhow to accommodate multiple options. A good soundguy will probably appreciate that. On the other hand, if you're playing a multi-band bar gig where there was little/no opportunity to advance the show, for $100 and free beer for the band, at times you need to accommodate the soundguy by making his life simple and allowing him to focus his energy on the "whole band" sound rather than spending a lot of time negotiating holes in kick heads. If you read the post on the other board, I go into that in great detail, and it sounds like you're already one of the "good guys" by having multiple head options, a well tuned kit, and the necessary extra gear (cables, mics, submixers, etc.) to turn any option into a reality. If a young drummer was getting ready to start gigging with strange soundmen, and asked me if he should put a hole in his head, I'd reccomend that he do it just to avoid hassles.

 

As for the cost of the heads, unless you ARE using a custom graphic head, most top-end kick heads (emad, aquarian, remo, etc.) can all be had for less than $50. So the actual cost of keeping a 2nd head around (one with a hole, one without) is relatively small. If your primary head has a hole in it, 99.999% of the time, it won't be an issue at all for a soundguy, whereas if you DON'T have a hole in it, it's probably more like 50/50 that the soundguy will have some level of anxiety about the whole thing.

 

The only thing I CAN'T condone is stories where the soundguy has cut a hole in the head on his own, without permission. In that case, I think it's perfectly ok for the drummer to take a used SM57 or other comparably priced peice of gear, show it to the soundguy and put it in his pocket and call things "even"...you cost me $50 for a new head, I'll take this used mic worth $50 in trade.

 

Anyway, I hope this clarifies things a little bit. While there is no "official" standardization of this stuff, the fact is 90%+ bands working in bars are playing the same material, and doing things very similarly. The more you stray from the "typical bar band" routine, the more you should expect to have to deal with things like this. Final point: if you're supplying the PA, mics, etc., and/or if you have a dedicated soundguy, then you can do whatever you want because the gig doesn't change much day-to-day. For $150/night soundguys doing 3 bands a night, "standardization" becomes more essential.

[worthyjoe]

How hard is it to change the front head for the kick drum? Is it a pain in the butt or does it just take a couple minutes? Just curious.

 

I have a new drummer (who we haven't gigged with yet) and he has no port hole in his head. I think I may just buy one for him and ask him to switch them.

 

I also ordered a custom "removable" drum head logo as a welcoming gift. Anyone tried these? I got in the mail today and will check it out when I get home.

 

I ordered it here:

 

www.drumart.com

 

 

[Sordid1]

Originally posted by worthyjoe How hard is it to change the front head for the kick drum? Is it a pain in the butt or does it just take a couple minutes? Just curious. I have a new drummer (who we haven't gigged with yet) and he has no port hole in his head. I think I may just buy one for him and ask him to switch them. I also ordered a custom "removable" drum head logo as a welcoming gift. Anyone tried these? I got in the mail today and will check it out when I get home. I ordered it here: www.drumart.com

 

I'm not a drummer and I can change a front head in probably ten or fifteen minutes. You can just buy the holz thing which sticks to the drum and then you use a box cutter to cut out the circle in the middle. I used a circle template from a scrapbooking kit (my wifes) and it worked just fine.

[rca]

 

Originally posted by worthyjoe How hard is it to change the front head for the kick drum? Is it a pain in the butt or does it just take a couple minutes? Just curious.

 

 

It is a bother because the kick is so large and you have to retune the drum. But it should take less than 10 minutes IF you haven't already set up your kit with the kick drum right in the middle of everything. I keep one kick set up for a rock type "thud" with a port and another kick set up for a "boom" with no port so that I don't have to change heads and tuning back and forth. Having two kicks just to avoid changing heads though is too expensive to be a practical solution for most people.

[Zeromus-X]

 

Originally posted by rca But it should take less than 10 minutes IF you haven't already set up your kit with the kick drum right in the middle of everything.

 

 

Is your kick backwards or something? Last I checked, the front of the kick drum is pretty much always accessible unless the singer's standing in front of it. And as we all know, until the first note of the first song (and sometimes even later...), the singer isn't anywhere near that stage. Unless you're changing resonant kick heads in the middle of your set I fail to see this as an "issue".

[rca]

Zeromus-X: Sure I can move the stands out of the way, but getting access to the front head is not all you need to tune a drum properly. You need quiet and access to the opposite head in order to dampen it. My experience is that it takes longer to tune a drum if its already set up in a kit, which you apparently disagree with. Since we are talking about head replacement, we are not talking about fine tuning which is easy to do while a drum is set up in a kit. The easiest solution is just to remove the front head altogether and replace it after the gig.

 

PS: It is like asking the bass player to change one of his strings right before starting the set. The concern is not simply the physical changing of the string, but a concern that it might screw up the sound of the whole instrument. Maybe some bass players would not care, but one that tracks the age of his strings probably would.

[Old Steve]

 

Originally posted by Zeromus-X Is your kick backwards or something? Last I checked, the front of the kick drum is pretty much always accessible unless the singer's standing in front of it. And as we all know, until the first note of the first song (and sometimes even later...), the singer isn't anywhere near that stage. Unless you're changing resonant kick heads in the middle of your set I fail to see this as an "issue".

 

 

Gotta agree with RCA on this one...it's a million times easier for me to change a head if the drum isn't set up..toms, kick, snare, anything. The only exception might be a snare batter.

 

For a kick that's set up, even the reso head, you end up crawling around like a dog, might have to move some stands around, and that just to put the new head on...not get it in tune. The other problem with the kick is that if you put the head on while the drum is set up, I always feel like I'm rolling the dice in regard to getting the head to seat properly. On the other hand, if you can lay the drum down (batter head toward the floor), the resonant head lays across the shell naturally and evenly before you even put the hoop on in most cases. With toms, the issue for me is RIMS mounts. Since the mount is held on by the tuning rods and rim, you can't take the head off and keep the drum on the stand.

 

To the orignal question, however, changing a kick head should take about 10-15 minutes give or take a few minutes. No big deal.

 

One final thought: I'll usually change all my tom heads at the same time (4 toms...sometimes just the batters, sometimes both) and buying one of those drumkeys that fits into an electric screwdriver/drill motor is a great thing to have handy. While it's not good for actual tuning, it'll enable you to pull a head off in about 1 minute vs. 3 or 4 minutes with a standard key. When you put the new head on, you can also get the tension rods tightened to just above the rim (where you'll need to go back to a normal key in most cases) in about a minute per head. I figure it can shave 10 minutes off of each head change. Not bad for something that costs about $2.