Members Dance123 Posted March 5, 2004 Members Share Posted March 5, 2004 Hi, Could anyone please explain what the difference is between the encircled P and C symbols? Am I correct that the P indicates the copyright of the sound recording or performance or something like that? And what exactly does the C stand for? Is the C for copyright of the song and does that cover both the lyrics and the musical composition? Also, if the C symbol refers to the copyright of the song (lyrics, composition?), why is the record label being mention and not the publisher (or publishing affiliate of the label) since I thought the publisher has the copyright of the song, isn't that so?! Also, does the "written by.." notation on a CD have any legal value (and is it even mandatory that they put this on a CD) or is it just there as information? Anybody could please clarify all this? Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members supermads Posted March 5, 2004 Members Share Posted March 5, 2004 maybbe this will help: http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa041401a.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dance123 Posted March 5, 2004 Author Members Share Posted March 5, 2004 Thanks for the link, but as far as I can see it doesn't say anything about the © and (P) copyright symbols. Anybody else who can help me with my above questions? Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scheming Demon Posted March 6, 2004 Members Share Posted March 6, 2004 The c encircled means the songs have been copyrighted. More specifically registered with the copyright office in DC. The p encircled means the songs have been published. There are publishing rights and copyrights. He who owns the publishing gets paid. Every band creates their own publishing company which is not really a company but is just where money is paid to and then distributed to the song owners/band members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted March 9, 2004 Members Share Posted March 9, 2004 Originally posted by Scheming Demon The c encircled means the songs have been copyrighted. More specifically registered with the copyright office in DC. The p encircled means the songs have been published. Get your facts straight before posting with such authority. C means copyright - registered with whoever depending on the country the song comes from. (in australia this is automatic - doesn't have to be registered but can be challenged). Copyright covers the lyrics and MELODY of the song. Chord structures can not be copyrighted although musical riffs may count as melody. P - and this is where you are dead wrong - stands for phonographic copyright and is a copyright of the sound recording owned by whoever paid for the sound recording (usually the record company). It is nothing to do with publishing. Publishing is generally just a way of getting the songs of a song writer out into the public (through A&R, soundtracks, commercials etc.) and then collecting royalties that the songwriter is entitled to for those songs. This is in exchange for a percentage of the royalties. A song writer could do it all him or her self but it would not be worth the amount of time invested. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mighty Coogna! Posted March 16, 2004 Members Share Posted March 16, 2004 © is a copyright for the published art or lyrics, score, packeging, graphics, etc. (P) is for performance copyright. I dont know about Phonographic. or maybe it stands for Physical , as in the recording medium. Not certian now. The P copyright is particular to music, as i havnt seen it elseware. As a side note a TM is for a logo or other identifying graphics and precedes a formal © copyright. Also you might notice a SM from time to time indicating use by a govt instituion or school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted March 16, 2004 Members Share Posted March 16, 2004 From:http://www.high-techproductions.com/copyright.htm Form of Notice for Phonorecords of Sound Recordings The copyright notice for phonorecords of sound recordings* has somewhat different requirements. The notice appearing on phonorecords should contain the following three elements: *Sound recordings are defined as "works that result from the fixation of a series of musical, spoken, or other sounds, but not including the sounds accompanying a motion picture or other audiovisual work, regardless of the nature of the material objects, such as disks, tapes, or other phonorecords, in which they are embodied. 1. The sound recording copyright symbol (the letter "P" in a circle); and 2. The year of first publication of the sound recording; and 3. The name of the owner of copyright in the sound recording, or an abbreviation by which the name can be recognized, or a generally known alternative designation of the owner. If the producer of the sound recording is named on the phonorecord labels or containers, and if no other name appears in conjunction with the notice, the producer's name shall be considered a part of the notice. Position of Notice The notice should be affixed to copies or phonorecords of the work in such a manner and location as to "give reasonable notice of the claim of copyright." The notice on phonorecords may appear on the surface of the phonorecord or on the phonorecord label or container, provided the manner of placement and location give reasonable notice of the claim. The three elements of the notice should ordinarily appear together on the copies or phonorecords. The Copyright Office has issued regulations concerning the form and position of the copyright notice in the Code of Federal Regulations (37 CFR Part 201). For more information, request Circular 3 It doesn't actually say what the P copyright symbol means on any web site I have found but I can assure you it is phonograph. It is an anachronism today but does mean ownership of the sound recording (as opposed to the song or the performance). Until recently this was almost exclusively record companies as home recordings (where the recorder payed for the recording) didn't really exist. The C copyright in terms of music is for lyrics and melody only. I think packaging is covered seperately (but is assumed). Publishing has nothing to do with either of them (except in terms of collecting the money from C copyright for you). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kid Klash Posted March 17, 2004 Members Share Posted March 17, 2004 I can't speak for other countries, but in the U.S. of A., a circled C is the symbol for "copyright"; the circled P is the symbol for "published". Still unsure? Join ASCAP as a composer/publisher and learn more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scheming Demon Posted March 17, 2004 Members Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by Kid Klash I can't speak for other countries, but in the U.S. of A., a circled C is the symbol for "copyright"; the circled P is the symbol for "published". Still unsure? Join ASCAP as a composer/publisher and learn more. Thanks Kid, that's what I've always been taught until I got scolded by the Aussie for speaking out of turn. It's possible he's right for Australia and we are right for the USA. I don't know anything about music copyrighting and publishing anywhere but here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted March 17, 2004 Members Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by Scheming Demon Thanks Kid, that's what I've always been taught until I got scolded by the Aussie for speaking out of turn. It's possible he's right for Australia and we are right for the USA. I don't know anything about music copyrighting and publishing anywhere but here. Show me proof!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted March 17, 2004 Members Share Posted March 17, 2004 What proof I've been able to find: The first one is not proof positive, the second could be refuted, the third I don't think you could refute. The first two are from googling the words phonographic copywrite symbol. That put me on the track for the third link. From http://desktoppub.about.com/cs/finetypography/ht/copyright_tm.htm Point 12: The circled P copyright symbol for sound recordings is not standard in most fonts. It can be found in some specialty fonts or extended characters sets. Although not yet widely supported in Web browsers, & #8471; (with no space) is the Sound Recording Copyright Symbol in Unicode ?. From http://www.rcm.ac.uk/Copyright/14_1.htm For sound recordings, the mark of a P in a circle was introduced at the Rome convention of 1961. It should be applied to all recorded formats to indicate the phonographic nature of the copyright. From http://www.wipo.int/clea/docs/en/wo/wo024en.htm (Rome convention of 1961) Article 11 [Formalities for Phonograms] If, as a condition of protecting the rights of producers of phonograms, or of performers, or both, in relation to phonograms, a Contracting State, under its domestic law, requires compliance with formalities, these shall be considered as fulfilled if all the copies in commerce of the published phonogram or their containers bear a notice consisting of the symbol (P), accompanied by the year date of the first publication, placed in such a manner as to give reasonable notice of claim of protection; and if the copies or their containers do not identify the producer or the licensee of the producer (by carrying his name, trade mark or other appropriate designation), the notice shall also include the name of the owner of the rights of the producer; and, furthermore, if the copies or their containers do not identify the principal performers, the notice shall also include the name of the person who, in the country in which the fixation was effected, owns the rights of such performers. Please note, the rome convention is an international convention including the US - this is not aussie exclusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted March 17, 2004 Members Share Posted March 17, 2004 Another one: Library of congress copyright office (is that american enough for you). Form of Notice for Phonorecords of Sound Recordings* * Sound recordings are defined in the law as "works that result from the fixation of a series of musical, spoken, or other sounds, but not including the sounds accompanying a motion picture or other audiovisual work." Common examples include recordings of music, drama, or lectures. A sound recording is not the same as a phonorecord. A phonorecord is the physical object in which works of authorship are embodied. The word "phonorecord" includes cassette tapes, CDs, LPs, 45 r. p. m. disks, as well as other formats. The notice for phonorecords embodying a sound recording should contain all the following three elements: 1. The symbol (the letter P in a circle); and 2. The year of first publication of the sound recording; and 3. The name of the owner of copyright in the sound recording, or an abbreviation by which the name can be recognized, or a generally known alternative designation of the owner. If the producer of the sound recording is named on the phonorecord label or container and if no other name appears in conjunction with the notice, the producer's name shall be considered a part of the notice. Example: 2002 A. B. C. Records Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted March 17, 2004 Members Share Posted March 17, 2004 oops, forgot the link: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members R0ry Posted March 17, 2004 Members Share Posted March 17, 2004 moody pwnz j00. I thought (P) was for publishing rights at first as well, but you can't deny the letter of the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kid Klash Posted March 18, 2004 Members Share Posted March 18, 2004 Like I wrote before - check with ASCAP, or BMI, or any other publishing-oriented organization, or, check with your local attorney that specializes in music law... a "P" with a circle around it stands for "published". You'll see it often on the back of CDs, books, and many other copyrighted and pulished things, as in : © (p) 2004 Columbian Records - a division of Snort Corp. Or, if you're still confused about copyright and publishing laws and symbols in Australia, check with : http://www.apra.com.au Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Doc Wilson Posted March 18, 2004 Members Share Posted March 18, 2004 I don't know anything about australia, but I'm familiar with US copyright and trademark law, having just made a study of it for a service company I consult for. According to the US Copyright Office, you are simply wrong. The p stands for phonorecord, though it covers other forms of "works that result from the fixation of a series of musical, spoken, or other sounds". Publishing is entirely different issue, and is covered in detail on the governments website as well. http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted March 18, 2004 Members Share Posted March 18, 2004 I am not at all confused, I've studied this for a year already (diploma of music). I'm not studying music business specific course, but we did do the same copyright and publishing classes that they did. Did you even read the multiple posts above. Offer me proof and I'll believe you but I have so far 5 independent sources of proof and I haven't seen one from you. (I did check BMI and ASCAP and found nothing - not suprising since they are performing rights associations - not copyright associations). In addition, often the record company is not the publisher of the artist so it wouldn't say the record company. e.g. emi has a publishing arm called emi publishing - yet records have (p) emi records 2001. Show me an example of, for example, (p) warner-chappel publishing 19XX. It doesn't exist (at least on cd's, don't know about book form but I'm not talking about that). I'm going to keep bringing forth proofs and arguments until I am believed. Originally posted by Dance123 Also, if the C symbol refers to the copyright of the song (lyrics, composition?), why is the record label being mention and not the publisher (or publishing affiliate of the label) since I thought the publisher has the copyright of the song, isn't that so?! The publishing company is not mentioned as they don't own any copyright. The individual owns copyright in a song unless they have assigned it permanently to another party - often administered by the publisher, the record label owns copyright of the recording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trademark-argentina Posted April 11, 2016 Members Share Posted April 11, 2016 trademark registration in argentina uses R as the symbol. wich means registered trademark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted April 11, 2016 Moderators Share Posted April 11, 2016 Sorry, Kid, the ruling goes with Moody...published is only in reference to the actual release date [publication] of a recording, has nothing to do with a publisher, per se. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted April 11, 2016 Moderators Share Posted April 11, 2016 Thanks for the info, although this discussion ended over a decade ago, amigo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 It's still useful information though. In the USA, you don't have to register your work with the Copyright Office at the Library of Congress in order to use those symbols, but in the case of infringement you do give up some punitive damages that you might otherwise be entitled to if you don't, and it becomes more difficult to prove your ownership. P in a circle is for the sound recording copyright, which may (if the copyright claimant is the same for the recording AND the musical work) also apply to the embedded musical work - lyrics and/or melody - depending on how you want to file it. The C in a circle is for the musical/lyrical work itself. When in doubt, contact your attorney, the Registrar of Copyrights at the Library of Congress or your Performance Rights Society for more info. Oh, and BMI / SESAC / ASCAP are very interested in copyright law - while they are "performance rights societies", what they do is license and collect performance royalties for publishers and songwriters from radio stations and other licensees and distribute those funds to the writers (50% split between the writer(s) and 50% to the publisher) based on which songs gets played on-air (which are legally public performances of the copyright-protected work) the most. The right of public performance for copyright-protected works belongs to the copyright holder - usually the publisher, although that can be the same entity as the writer if they self-publish, or the label if they are functioning as publisher. As far as the label being listed as "publisher", sometimes they do function in that capacity. Heaven knows they definitely like to try to get a cut of the publisher's share in contract negotiations. Nothing says you have to own your own publishing company, or that the record companies have to use an outside publisher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted April 13, 2016 Members Share Posted April 13, 2016 Wow. A like for a post from before likes existed. I had to re-set my password to figure my way back onto this forum. Such vim and vigor looking at the 27 year old me fighting so hard for something that really didn't matter or affect me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted April 13, 2016 Moderators Share Posted April 13, 2016 youth is wasted on the young...amazing though, how much bad info there is on the internet regarding this kind of thing, hence my efforts here to get them clarified and creating the stickies that now adorn the top of the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BassGirlLucyD Posted March 28, 2020 Members Share Posted March 28, 2020 The (P) definitely stands for the copywrite of the phonographic material / recording.. Here in the UK its the same © stands for whow owns the actual Lyric, Tune, arrangement. And that's usually the Writer or composer of the song and that one don't of work.. The confusion is when it goes into the studio the recording becomes a second body of work and that is owned by the studio / recording company or record lable and thus labeled with a (P)... So when it later gets publish through a publishing company the company. Know where the royalties need to be sent.. And theos royalties need to be agreed with the Studio, / recording company or record label and the original artist.. So if you have written the song, lyrics, melody ect then you should put... © 2020 Your Name or Group... If you also did the rocording as is so often the case these days you should put (P) 2020 Your name or group.. Or you can you © (P) 2020 your name / group.. However if you've gone to a studio you should pu (P) 2020 studio name.... Unless you have a greed with the studio that because you have paid for the time. In the studio then you own the recording.. However many pro studios will allow to own the tapes or stems that they have recorded but at a price.. As you've only booked the engineer and studio and not the rights to the actual recordings.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted March 28, 2020 Moderators Share Posted March 28, 2020 Welcome to HC, LucyD! That is an interesting variant the UK has, as far as the studio having ownership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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