Rock vs Jazz kits...

[Enigmatic]

This may be a silly question, but are there any differences between Jazz kits and Rock kits? Or is it all in the tuning?

 

I dont really see any classification on Jazz or Rock kits, but you can hear a huge difference in sound when you compare metal drummers vs Jazz drummers.

 

 

[cearleywine]

mostly the size, but jazz kits are typically higher tuned. Jazz kicks: 18" or 20". Rock is usually 20"+. Other than the shells I'd say cymbals have a great deal on the overall sound, you probably wouldn't see a metal guy gigging a flat ride and you wouldn't see a jazz guy gigging with a Z custom.

[Enigmatic]

Thanks. I guess drums don't really have a classification as jazz or rock or grunge.. (as you see in guitars).

 

I usually find most jazz drums sound a bit vintage. Maybe those drums are vintage or manufactured in 70s... (I would have posted few youtube links, but I dont have access to youtube right now)

 

 

Either ways, if its tuning, hats/cymbals preference, it makes ones life much easier.

 

 

Any difference in snare? Brass vs Wood vs Steel ?

[manoeuver]

tuning is big, recording methods are very important too. you can play any music on any kit.

[aenemated]

 

you can play any music on any kit.

 

 

this.

[Longfuse]

As a rule of thumb, jazz drummers prefer wood snares and kits were smaller from the 50s onwards. Tuning also tends to be higher.

 

Plenty of great players break those conventions, though. All about the way you play them and the rest is icing on the cake.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

the difference are the drummers themself, how they play and how they prepare their drums sound wise

 

i wouldn't like to play a rock song on a 18" bass drum, it would just sound silly.

 

jazz drummers also make other selection for cymbals then rock drummers, also drummers who play country music make other selections and preparation etc. etc.

 

lets say a speed metal drummer plays on a jazz set, the sound would just not be right...

[Enigmatic]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I recently purchased an acoustic drum kit. I would like to tweak and play around with the tuning as much as possible.

 

It would be interesting to see how versatile I can get it to sound. This should be fun.

 

 

I personally like the how Dave Weckl, Steve Gadd, Steve Smith and Buddy Rich tune their drums. ( I certainly wouldn't mind if the kit sounded like Mike Portnoy or Virgil Donati's kit)

[drumtechdad]

Head choice is in the mix, too.

 

Jazz players kept playing calfskin heads longer than the rock players did. To this day many straight-ahead jazz players use heads meant to emulate the tone of calf, such as Remo Fiberskyns. Check out Steve Smith playing a kit with calfskin heads:

 

[YOUTUBE]2xrmmCbgXBk&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

 

And as everybody says, many tune higher than rock players. Actually, in the clip above, Smith's drums are tuned pretty low for small-group jazz.

 

Jazz is a big category, including as it does the big band guys like Buddy Rich, who typically played big drums (24" bass drum, 13 & 16" toms) to bop small group players (who might go for 18, 12, and 14) to guys playing fusiony stuff whose kits may be indistinguishable from a big rock kit, size-wise.

 

The big band guys tended to tune lower for their bass drums, the bop guys higher, even up into floor tom range. The fusion guys' bass drums might sound just like rock bass drums. It's all over the place.

 

If you have one kit and you need to be able to play many different types of music on it, the standard choice for snare and toms is coated amabassadors over clears. Very versatile.

[aenemated]

when i think of modern jazz drummers, the LAST thing i think of is a small kit.

 

or maybe that's fusion and i don't know wtf i'm talking about.

 

stupid genres.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

i believe the reason that jazz sets are smaller is that jazz musician travel light

[Enigmatic]

 

Head choice is in the mix, too. Jazz players kept playing calfskin heads longer than the rock players did. To this day many straight-ahead jazz players use heads meant to emulate the tone of calf, such as Remo Fiberskyns. Check out Steve Smith playing a kit with calfskin heads: And as everybody says, many tune higher than rock players. Actually, in the clip above, Smith's drums are tuned pretty low for small-group jazz. Jazz is a big category, including as it does the big band guys like Buddy Rich, who typically played big drums (24" bass drum, 13 & 18" toms) to bop small group players (who might go for 18, 12, and 14) to guys playing fusiony stuff whose kits may be indistinguishable from a big rock kit, size-wise. The big band guys tended to tune lower for their bass drums, the bop guys higher, even up into floor tom range. The fusion guys' bass drums might sound just like rock bass drums. It's all over the place. If you have one kit and you need to be able to play many different types of music on it, the standard choice for snare and toms is coated amabassadors over clears. Very versatile.

 

 

 

Wow, so that's actually a skin and not mylar head? It's sound's fantastic.

 

 

Here's another clip. I really dig this tuning.. (it seems rather low too)

 

[YOUTUBE]_c6qqxnOaiA[/YOUTUBE]

[boxofrocks]

 

when i think of modern jazz drummers, the LAST thing i think of is a small kit. or maybe that's fusion and i don't know wtf i'm talking about. stupid genres.

 

 

I think I know what you're saying, when I think of jazz I think of big ol 28 inch bass drums, hats, and big ol ride.. But that may be the big band jazz thing.. I know ass about jazz..

[drumtechdad]

when i think of modern jazz drummers, the LAST thing i think of is a small kit. or maybe that's fusion and i don't know wtf i'm talking about. stupid genres.

 

Ain't so hard.

 

 

 

[manoeuver]

i believe the reason that jazz sets are smaller is that jazz musician travel light

actually it's cause jazz drummers have no money.

[6topher]

It's the player, not the kit IMO.

 

I don't know crap about metal-clicking drums? triggers -what?

 

But I would take my Ludwig kit right now & play any kind of rock or traditional style of music be it punk rock - classic rock - freak rock- pot rock or any type of blues or jazz on it (my skill level not withstanding) & not think twice and with minor tweaking it would sound good on all of it.

 

Same when I played Guitar - I could go any way I wanted with my Gibson ES-335 & did.

[Enigmatic]

 

Same when I played Guitar - I could go any way I wanted with my Gibson ES-335 & did.

 

 

Of course you can. At the end it boils down to the player and techniques, which can take years to develop. But that's not my point. If you think one kit can do all tricks, why do you think there are a gazillion different options, size, woods, cymbals, heads and brands out there?

 

That's why I opened this thread. I use toontrack EZD & SD software samples for my ekit, and trust me, there are tons of kits which sound vastly different. This got me thinking whether I can do the same with one kit. My kit arrives tomorrow and the experiment will begin.

 

 

As for now, I'm only getting opinions from as many drummers as possible.

 

FYI: You can listen to some of the toontrack sample libraries:

 

EZ Drummer: http://www.toontrack.com/products.asp?item=55

 

Superior Drummer:

 

http://www.toontrack.com/products.asp?item=51

 

http://www.toontrack.com/products.asp?item=45

[D Carroll]

 

mostly the size, but jazz kits are typically higher tuned. Jazz kicks: 18" or 20". Rock is usually 20"+. Other than the shells I'd say cymbals have a great deal on the overall sound, you probably wouldn't see a metal guy gigging a flat ride and you wouldn't see a jazz guy gigging with a Z custom.

 

 

says the one who used to gig a z custom...

[cearleywine]

 

says the one who used to gig a z custom...

 

 

ha, never. I had that Z custom china that seen a couple punk gigs but that's about it.

[soundcreation]

 

 

 

He's got those tuned nicely....

 

And can someone tell me if my eyes are deceiving me but those look like Pearl "World Series" drums! {censored}...haven't seen those for 20 years...(if they are)

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

 

actually it's cause jazz drummers have no money.

 

 

it's about time to give them some then

[pipes]

Isn't it the case that jazz (not fusion) drums are played with a very delicate touch, so it is the sticks that are the biggest factor in getting the right sound, I used to have a set of jazz sticks; they were like chop sticks compared to the broom handles of a heavy rock set.

[Longfuse]

Re smaller kits, after WWII there was less money around so big-bands disbanded and scaled-down outfits started playing in clubs. Many of the stages in these clubs were not ideally suited for performance.

 

Would you like to fit all this on a crowded bandstand?

 

 

Hence the need for smaller kits...plus they were cheaper to make (and, therefore, cheaper to buy).

 

It was no coincidence that the post-war period gave rise to the cocktail kit - or at least it became more 'popular': I have yet to see photos of any jazzer playing one...I don't think they ever really caught on until the Stray cats used them decades after the event.

[manoeuver]

Isn't it the case that jazz (not fusion) drums are played with a very delicate touch, so it is the sticks that are the biggest factor in getting the right sound, I used to have a set of jazz sticks; they were like chop sticks compared to the broom handles of a heavy rock set.

go find that tony williams thread from a week or so ago and disabuse yourself of that notion!

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

As more weight the drumstick has, as more energy is needed to keep the stick in motion.

 

But the weight and size of a drum stick is not so much related to the played dynamics. Except you play only loud, then heavy drumstick can be the choice.

 

Wide Range Dynamics on a drum is executed via SPEED-BALANCE-IMPACT.

 

Jazz drumming is wide range dynamic drumming. In Rock music general, the drummer is already compressing the dynamics with his art of drumming, in other words, rock drumming is usually not wide range dynamic drumming.

 

Drum size/pitch: as smaller the drum as higher the pitch, as larger the drum as lower the pitch. Drums of the same size with no bottom head are one octave lower in pitch then the the same size drums with a batter head at equal tuning.