PA Question - Who is right, me or the singer?

[phunkyhick]

So we had a talk with our singer, and things are still a lot better, but he gave us some stipulations on playing covers.

 

1. We don't do too many cover shows.

2. We only do two sets

3. That we only run vocals through the PA.

 

1 and 2 I had no problem with, but I think he has no idea what he is talking about with 3. Plus he does not own the PA.

 

Anyways, he says "I'm not going to compete with that, you guys have good amps, you don't need to run through the PA."

 

I explained that we had to run kick through the PA, and he decided that he would try that. He kept saying that it sounds muddy if you run everything through the PA. I explained to him that that was stupid because every other professional PA runs everything through it.

 

We have 1000W Yamaha 12 channel powered mixer, 12" monitors, and 15" mains (JBL's entry level series).

 

I probably wouldn't run through the PA. Anyways, my guitar player wants to run through the PA, so he can run his amp at a lower volume level (I know, you never hear that from a GUITAR PLAYER now do ya?).

 

It makes sense to me that he doesn't want to strain his voice, and it seems to me that lower stage volume would help that. Rather than cranking our amps it makes sense that he could hear himself in the monitors better.

[Jazz Ad]

As long as the PAcan handle it (yours obviously can), run everybody through the PA.

[j powell]

in any room larger than a bathroom i think the pa should have everything running. then you can keep the stage volume more reasonable, communicate better and go deaf later.

[The Insomniac]

We run everything through the PA and run just the vocals through the monitors.

[phunkyhick]

 

Originally posted by The Insomniac We run everything through the PA and run just the vocals through the monitors.

 

 

This was my thought.

 

I really don't get how running more than one thing through the PA would hurt.

 

I explained to him that we sounded great at one show because stage volume was manageable and everything was run through PA. His response was "Well that was PROFESSIONAL, man, that's different"

 

DIfferent to some degree.

[el_duderino676]

I would say that you need to run everything through the PA. It would keep the stage volume down and allow you to hear the mix better.

[no-logic]

Originally posted by The Insomniac We run everything through the PA and run just the vocals through the monitors.

+1 here

[Cortfan]

I would ask the guys at Live Sound about this. We use the Bose PAS system with everything going thru it, at small to medium venues. For larger venues, we sometimes backline my bass, and the guitar player, and sometimes send it all thru the conventional P.A. YMMV. A lot depends on the P.A. and the size of the venue. They are always different. Are you powering both the monitors and mains thru the one mixer? The JBL entry level mains tend to get muddy, with too many things going thru them, especially with the single 15's and no other subs.

[phunkyhick]

 

Originally posted by Cortfan I would ask the guys at Live Sound about this. We use the Bose PAS system with everything going thru it, at small to medium venues. For larger venues, we sometimes backline my bass, and the guitar player, and sometimes send it all thru the conventional P.A. YMMV. A lot depends on the P.A. and the size of the venue. They are always different. Are you powering both the monitors and mains thru the one mixer? The JBL entry level mains tend to get muddy, with too many things going thru them, especially with the single 15's and no other subs.

 

 

I know that it all depends on the venue. I'm not planning on running through the PA, I have plenty of rig for my purposes, and I know that getting it to run my bass frequencies will start asking a bit much of the PA. The kick really doesn't need that thump that caves in your chest, but we need to get it out there.

 

We are powering the mains and monitors through one mixer, we have one channel set for monitors, the other for mains.

 

This just seems like a ridiculous demand. He generally does not know what the hell he is doing when it comes to these sorts of things. It just seems to me that by insisting that we never do it that way, he is screwing himself over in a serious way.

[Emprov]

 

Originally posted by The Insomniac We run everything through the PA and run just the vocals through the monitors.

 

 

Another +1, your singer's a moron.

[el_duderino676]

 

Originally posted by phunkyhick This just seems like a ridiculous demand. He generally does not know what the hell he is doing when it comes to these sorts of things. It just seems to me that by insisting that we never do it that way, he is screwing himself over in a serious way.

 

 

Well, the singer isn't supposed to know about how anything works, he is just there to belt his heart out singing.

[leepmeister]

My band always gets the best compliments when as much as possible is going thru the PA (both guitars, vocals, at least a kick and snare mic, and a little bass), because everything is balanced (in theory), i.e. the guy sitting on the left side can hear both guitars, not just the one pointed directly at him.

 

Bass is omnipresent so it doesn't matter ;-)

[ezstep]

Run as much as possible through the p.a. and vocals only in the monitors - with no effects on the monitors. No echo, no reverb, nothing!

[link wray]

running everything trough the PA is a good idea; it gives the soundman more control. But running the kickdrum and bassguitar trough a PA with no subwoofer is not very sensible: most PA cabs have no or very little response below 100 HZ. If you want to run everything trough your PA i suggest you buy some PA subs, an extra power amp, and a crossover.

[mistermike]

I have friends that run a similar system. They run guitar and a little kick and snare through the pa. They always sound good. With 12" monitors and the power supplied via the power-mixer, they have a hard time getting enough monitor volume. Unless the singer plans on standing in front of the FOH speakers, he won't be happy. Get ear plugs and try his suggestion. Just make him stay behind the FOH speaker and don't give him earplugs. I'm lucky with the band I'm in. If I have an idea or suggestion the others are always willing to try almost anything. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Spend an afternoon trying different ideas out. Be open to suggestions, even stupid ones. You'll learn more about your system and make your point at the same time.

[the_big_geez]

Sounds to me as if your singer doesn't have the slightest clue what a PA IS and DOES.

 

Whether he knows it or not, what he MEANS is only vox through the monitors.

 

That'd be the 'professional' thing to do...

[Mudbass]

Rule #1. Singers are never right.

 

This simple rule should be used to resolve this and all future issues.

[rovito]

Your singer has an affliction known as L.S.D.(lead singers disease). He needs to get a better mic and monitors of his own. You all had to buy your own gear. Have him also read some educational material on P.A. systems. I recomend EVs P.A. bible. It's easy to read, not very long with plenty of pictures. The next thing you have to consider is if he is worth the effort. Most singers I find are not as good as they think they are but they are hard to come by. If he is a problem in the practice stage of your band he will probably get much worse when really important desicions need to be made. If he is your friend, can move a crowd and sings great keep working with him.

 

I hope this all makes sense. I am running on three hours sleep.

Your in a tough spot. Good luck.

[bonscottvocals]

Silly, but simple, when it comes to the mixing board, the only thing that should be coming through the monitors is the vocals. Period. If you have amps on stage, the monitor mix should be 100% vocals. If you put instruments in there, you're amplifying them twice to the stage.

 

To the house, you can put instruments in, and you should. This gives more control over the overall audience sound experience. The suggestion to get a crossover and subs is very sage, but not 100% necessary. You can still mix some bass and kick in there to accentuate. Especially if you want people to dance.

 

Again, he shouldn't be screaming over you so long as you keep the instruments out of the monitor mix. And with that configuration, it's easy.

[takeout]

Originally posted by rovito Your singer has an affliction known as L.S.D.(lead singers disease). He needs to get a better mic and monitors of his own. You all had to buy your own gear.

That makes too much sense. Good luck finding a singer who'll buy into that.

[bleepo]

that's not as hard as you think... talk him into a wireless mic (you know, so he looks cool). Keep him away from bad quality mics (you know, so he doesn't sound bad) and he should be into it.

[jazzbassist]

let me share my insight with you. I work for a sound company here in southern virginia... (FSR) I have used everything from crappy peavey and yahama powered mixers with crap speakers to V-DOSC systems with Midas consoles, I have used the new Yahama PM1D board (ahh, sooo hot!) but anyway.

 

Bottom line: You need much more than 1k watts for your entire band to mix through a PA. 1k through a powered mixer is great for rehearsal, but thats about it. I would suggest at least 4k. (1.2-1.5k for each suck and 500-800 for each top) for a small club. Headroom is key. The more the merrier. Also, the problem with your "mud" is probably 1 of 2 things. 1: You don't have subs, or they arent crossed over at the right place and you are sending too much lows to the mains. 2: You havent EQ'ed anything well enough. Everything gets it's own EQ. You can Trim out the rig with a general EQ for the room, but you need to be able to trim out each piece so it will fit well inside the big picture.

 

so really, powered mixers are great for rehearsal, but I wouldn't gig out with them. I know money is a huge limiting factor, but you need some better stuff if you want to run the whole band through the PA. So for now, your singer is right, i would only put vocals through the PA. You will have to fight the crowd with stage volume but that is the breaks. If you play a huge room or any gig that requires a PA chances are there will be an in house PA with an engineer. If not, then spend $200 a get one. Or, bite the bullet and spend a few grand and get something that you can really use.

[unbridled]

As a bass player, I like a little kick in the mons. Do you only have one mix? You might suggest he get some In-ear monitors. Even the cheap Nady systems arent too bad.

[shaffle]

 

Originally posted by phunkyhick So we had a talk with our singer, and things are still a lot better, but he gave us some stipulations on playing covers. 1. We don't do too many cover shows. 2. We only do two sets 3. That we only run vocals through the PA. 1 and 2 I had no problem with, but I think he has no idea what he is talking about with 3. Plus he does not own the PA. Anyways, he says "I'm not going to compete with that, you guys have good amps, you don't need to run through the PA." I explained that we had to run kick through the PA, and he decided that he would try that. He kept saying that it sounds muddy if you run everything through the PA. I explained to him that that was stupid because every other professional PA runs everything through it. We have 1000W Yamaha 12 channel powered mixer, 12" monitors, and 15" mains (JBL's entry level series). I probably wouldn't run through the PA. Anyways, my guitar player wants to run through the PA, so he can run his amp at a lower volume level (I know, you never hear that from a GUITAR PLAYER now do ya?). It makes sense to me that he doesn't want to strain his voice, and it seems to me that lower stage volume would help that. Rather than cranking our amps it makes sense that he could hear himself in the monitors better.

 

 

Alright, here's my take on this. Your stage volume should be such as to encourage proper dynamics from your players. Soooo many times it seems as if a contest is underway to determine the "alpha" player on stage (the "more of me" in the monitor syndrome). Until you all realize that its ALL ABOUT THE SONG AND NOT THE PLAYERS, you will sound like a bunch of amateurs. A good sound tech will reel you into this reality and make you sound as good, or better than you are, if you let him/her. If you run sound from stage, then SOMEONE has to take the lead to communicate and enforce the point or you will forever sound like AMATEURS (or worse - "poser" is a term commonly used by my teenaged offspring)!

 

Back to topic. If you have a PA capable of running everyone's signal to the board with the proper mix, DO THAT! Thats what PA systems are for. Get your stage volume under control and fill the house with your own unique sound. I've contributed to this forum before regarding that its not about you (whatever you play) its about the song! You are a team, make the song like that.

[Darkstorm]

I dont think the singer realizes a very basic thing. Each instrument and voice is a instrument, sounds its best. When its also sounding great in the mix. You can also avoid that "no one can hear me from this part of audiance" thing. By going Pa for most of the sound. With each peeps individual amp, more as jus kewl stage monitor for them. Granted audiance member closest to the stage. Who are right in front of the musicians stage rig. Will get to hear it pretty well too. But anyway, singers missing two points. 1. He'll sound best when he also sounds great in the mix. 2 He'll be better heard from all over the audiance. Neither drowning out, nor being drowned out, from anywhere in audiance.

 

But tell em its a fairly common unknown fact amongst most younger musicians. Cause most dont think of presenting bands sound to audiance as though its to be cd mix qaulity.