Members L-1329 Posted August 3, 2005 Members Share Posted August 3, 2005 For those who haven't heard there was an airplane accident in Toronto today. Initial speculation in the pilot community is that it could very well have been caused by severe weather during the landing, lightning or possibly microburst activity. Again though, just speculation. If it were to be a result of wind shear or microburst, it fell 20 years to the day of the Dallas L1011 windshear accident. To the day! If true then 20 years have not been enough to find ways to recognize and avoid those conditions, or to possibly teach the crews that a go around is not a sign of weakness, but better judgement. We will see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sunburstbasser Posted August 3, 2005 Members Share Posted August 3, 2005 I think that if its been 20 years, and considering the number of arrivals on a daily basis, we have learned quite a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members yossarian Posted August 3, 2005 Members Share Posted August 3, 2005 No fatalities this time though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members L-1329 Posted August 3, 2005 Author Members Share Posted August 3, 2005 Originally posted by yossarian No fatalities this time though. Thank God for that, but that is 100% luck that the impact wasn't any worst and that they all got out in time. I know that this really isn't much concern to a bass forum, but it really gets me down when things like this happen, when they are so absolutely avoidable. If the weather cause is proven true, then those pilots put their plane and all their passengers lives into an extremely hazardous position, and they should have known better. The airplane behind them went around, they should have too. Some of us have learned nothing in the last 20 years it seems, and ignorance and bravado kills a lot of innocent people in this business. Truly sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kaesh Posted August 3, 2005 Members Share Posted August 3, 2005 Originally posted by L-1329 Thank God for that, but that is 100% luck that the impact wasn't any worst and that they all got out in time. I know that this really isn't much concern to a bass forum, but it really gets me down when things like this happen, when they are so absolutely avoidable. If the weather cause is proven true, then those pilots put their plane and all their passengers lives into an extremely hazardous position, and they should have known better. The airplane behind them went around, they should have too. Some of us have learned nothing in the last 20 years it seems, and ignorance and bravado kills a lot of innocent people in this business. Truly sad. Why don't you become pilot if you know better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members T. Alan Smith Posted August 3, 2005 Members Share Posted August 3, 2005 Originally posted by Kaesh Why don't you become pilot if you know better? He IS a pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ezstep Posted August 3, 2005 Members Share Posted August 3, 2005 Passenger are saying that the plane was struck by lightning as it approached the runway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BigPigPeaches Posted August 3, 2005 Members Share Posted August 3, 2005 Originally posted by T. Alan Smith He IS a pilot. T once again lays the smackdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kaesh Posted August 3, 2005 Members Share Posted August 3, 2005 owned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted August 3, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted August 3, 2005 Way too early to start drawing any conclusions, folks. Let's let the people who do this for a living figure out what happened. Eyewitnesses, especially traumatized passengers, are notoriously inaccurate sources of information. It's been well documented that they leave out and even reverse details...many cases of a plane first crashing and then burning are reported as having caught fire in the air and then crashed....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DrSquirley Posted August 3, 2005 Members Share Posted August 3, 2005 How do you avoid a microburst, while your landing? -ALex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members L-1329 Posted August 3, 2005 Author Members Share Posted August 3, 2005 Originally posted by DrSquirley How do you avoid a microburst, while your landing?-ALex CraigV is right that this is nothing but speculation, but it is a very likely scenario given the conditions at the time, baring some mechanical problem. Microbursts can be avoided by avoiding their sources, mainly mature thunderstorm cells in the airport vicinity. Pilots have to know better than to initiate a low approach into hazardous weather. If they can't understand that, the rest is moot. Also if one is encountered there are telltale signs, but at this point recovery would be extremely difficult for most transport airplanes, and that's only if the pilots pick up the signs before they are in too deep. These things are bad news, but it is not that difficult to not fly an approach with a storm cell sitting right over your approach path. Lightning strikes in comparison, are really not that bad, and should not cause an airplane to crash in most situations. Planes get struck more than most realize, even small ones. With planes like Airbus's though, which are 100% dependent on computers to remain in the air anything is possible. If the electronics are fried so are you with those things. Lightning has a potential to do just that, though all their proponents will deny this fact to the end, and cover up any contradictory findings. That this happened in Canada almost guarantee's that the airplane will never be given blame for this accident, but it sure sounds like it was bad decision making from the crew anyway. Time will tell, and maybe others will learn something from this (again)... Oh, and T. Alan, that was funny! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DrSquirley Posted August 3, 2005 Members Share Posted August 3, 2005 Ah the conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted August 3, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted August 3, 2005 Originally posted by DrSquirley How do you avoid a microburst, while your landing?-ALex Between detection equipment and careful radar observation it's possible to predict conditions ripe for microbursts in the airport's vicinity. Most (all?) airports that handle large commercial traffic have warning systems. The best course of action in the event of a warning is to not attempt a landing....execute a missed approach; apply power, nose back up, gear up, and go around. If the plane is caught in a microburst, it's possible to get through it, but it depends on the strength and direction of the downdraft, and how far above ground the plane is...maneuvering room is critical. As L-1329 is stating, there's usually plenty of warning that conditions are bad. However, the pilots have the say as to whether to land or go around...terminal control can provide information on conditions, but if the pilot's coming in, he's coming in. The pressure to be at the gate on time is intense, so pilots will sometimes ignore their training and take unnecessary risks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WillPlay4food Posted August 3, 2005 Members Share Posted August 3, 2005 Originally posted by L-1329 The airplane behind them went around, they should have too. Some of us have learned nothing in the last 20 years it seems, and ignorance and bravado kills a lot of innocent people in this business. Truly sad. Maybe the airplane behind them went around because there was a smoldering plane on the runway? (Not to make light or anything) This was their second attempt at a landing though, maybe the first attempt was their warning but they chose to ignore it. I was coming back from Alaska and took a puddle jumper jet from NJ into BDL and it was so foggy we came really close (and I mean really close) to the control tower on the first attempted landing. The pilot decided it would be better to land in Providence. I guess looking back I'm glad he made that decision. Who knows what could've happened if he tried again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted August 3, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted August 3, 2005 At this point the only information I've found stated there was indeed a severe lightning warning, the pilot went around on the first attempt, and on the second attempt the cabin lights went out moments before the planes touched. The passengers clapped and cheered as it touched down, but it veered off the runway a short way along. Could be lightning, but the whole plane's there, albeit torched, so they'll be able to piece it together. Bottom line; any landing you walk away from is a good landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Perfessor Posted August 3, 2005 Members Share Posted August 3, 2005 See thread on aliens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LeBraniac Posted August 3, 2005 Members Share Posted August 3, 2005 search function disabled:( only aliens I can find are in my room now:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members L-1329 Posted August 3, 2005 Author Members Share Posted August 3, 2005 Originally posted by WillPlay4food Maybe the airplane behind them went around because there was a smoldering plane on the runway? (Not to make light or anything) The Air France airplane was not on the ground yet when the following plane went around. The tower relayed to them that there was lightning activity ahead of them and they opted to go around. Who know the actual circumstances the acident plane encountered. By the way the most common approach will bring a plane down to 200 feet 1/2 mile from the runway, which is very low. If at that point the pilot still doesn't have visual contact to the runway they go on a missed approach. The plane will be a little lower than that before it starts to make a positive climb also. Fog, low clouds and low visibility are very common and not a cause to be worried if your plane goes that low and misses, it happens all the time. It's when there is severe convective weather activity in the area that things become dangerous, and the was without question the case yesterday. BTW CraigV, I have used that line myself many times about any landing being a good one, but the reality is that 290 people came damn close to losing their lives here. Sometimes it is more funny than other times, but I know where you're coming from! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.