Members ZigmundFloyd Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 I scored a Fulltone BassDrive yesterday and the manual recommends using a Carbon-Zinc battery instead of an alkaline because "Although alkalines last longer, they tend to sound harsh."....This is news to me, never would have thought of it, been using alkalines forever. Hmmmmm. Is this why I don't like my active basses as well as my passives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members anothertxn Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Mike wants to sell you {censored} own power supply... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Batteries don't have a "sound", they just supply a nine volt supply to the electronics and are infinietly cleaner than any power supply you can use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sunburstbasser Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Originally posted by lug Batteries don't have a "sound", they just supply a nine volt supply to the electronics and are infinietly cleaner than any power supply you can use. Dead batteries can impart a sort of sound... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 311IncubusCKY Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Originally posted by steers b-c Mike wants to sell you {censored} own power supply... correct Originally posted by lug Batteries don't have a "sound", they just supply a nine volt supply to the electronics and are infinietly cleaner than any power supply you can use. incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MG-42 Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Might be of interest:http://www.bassplayer.com/story.asp?sectioncode=24&storycode=9472 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fretless Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 All those geetar players prefer Carbon batteries in their fuzzfaces and wahs , rumor has it Jimi Hendrix would partially drain his batteries , some of these power supplies , like Pedal power have a sag to simulate a worn battery , as it makes a wah more vocal . This is true just ask a nutty gtr player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fretless Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 guitar player did a shootout a few years back , their fav as I recall was the rayovac , putting out almost 12 volts of warm carbon tone I have it around here somewhere , lets see.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Originally posted by 311IncubusCKY incorrect. Really? Explain. (please no "mojo" or "brittle" or "warmth" descriptions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PaulyWally Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Technically... batteries don't have a sound, per se. But depending on the voltage being dispensed (as well as the electronics they're providing a charge for), they can change the electronic characteristics of any given piece of equipment. Analog semiconductors generally operate within a fairly large voltage tolerance. A common 741 op-amp (for example) can operate with anything from 4 volts to 24 volts. And simple transistors (like those used it the Dallas Arbiter fuzz box are no different). But WHERE that semiconductor is operating (in terms of voltage) is going to directly affect the signal it is manipulating. Quick example of a pre-amplifier: You have a semiconductor operating at 9 volts. It's sole purpose is to amplify an audio signal by 3. Your guitar/bass signal comes in at 2 volts. It leaves the semiconductor at 6 volts. Now, unless there are some voltage multipliers (very rare in basic analog audio circuits), a semiconductor cannot boost a signal beyond it's supply voltage. That's where clipping and distortion come from. So, if the 9-volt battery in our pre-amp is drained to 4 volts... our signal comes in at 2... it is amplified to 6 (theoretically)... but the semiconductor clips the signal at 4 volts... and you have squarewave distortion. For analog circuits that are designed with, and heavily rely on signal level accuracy... the power supply can become an integral part of the overall sound. Lug is 100% correct, though. They are the cleanest source of power you can provide. There are no transformers or other electronics to make them "hum". Edit: Carbon Zinc batteries and Lithium batteries don't last as long as Alkaline. But an Alkaline battery's charge will slowly and gradually drop to 0 volts. Carbon Zinc batteries will remain at their specific voltage and then quickly drop to 0 when their life is over. There might also be some other operating specs (in regards to wattage) with CZ batteries. I'm not all up to speed on them. I think there is also a larger tolerance in Alkaline's operating voltage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Originally posted by PaulyWally Technically... batteries don't have a sound, per se. But depending on the voltage being dispensed (as well as the electronics they're providing a charge for), they can change the electronic characteristics of any given piece of equipment. Analog semiconductors generally operate within a fairly large voltage tolerance. A common 741 op-amp (for example) can operate with anything from 4 volts to 24 volts. And simple transistors (like those used it the Dallas Arbiter fuzz box are no different). But WHERE that semiconductor is operating (in terms of voltage) is going to directly affect the signal it is manipulating. Quick example of a pre-amplifier: You have a semiconductor operating at 9 volts. It's sole purpose is to amplify an audio signal by 3. Your guitar/bass signal comes in at 2 volts. It leaves the semiconductor at 6 volts. Now, unless there are some voltage multipliers (very rare in basic analog audio circuits), a semiconductor cannot boost a signal beyond it's supply voltage. That's where clipping and distortion come from. So, if the 9-volt battery in our pre-amp is drained to 4 volts... our signal comes in at 2... it is amplified to 6 (theoretically)... but the semiconductor clips the signal at 4 volts... and you have squarewave distortion. For analog circuits that are designed with, and heavily rely on signal level accuracy... the power supply can become an integral part of the overall sound. Correct, but to suggest that circuits were designed to operate at a certain "sagged" voltage level would mean that the circuit was designed to operate during only a certain part of a battery's life span, say from 3/5ths to 4/5ths of it's life span since the roll off in a somewhat linear fashon. If this were the case, you would have to have "pre-drained" batteries to get a certain sound. I highly doubt any circuit designer would build something like this. As far as rail voltage goes, many people buy into the mysticism that different batteries cause the rail voltage to effect the sound, but are then fine with the wall wart AC adapter that comes with the pedal. This source is an AC signal that has been stepped down, rectified and the filtered by caps to approximate a true DC level. No where NEAR as clean as a battery's output. I would also like to point out that Fenders don't have dead spots because of the name on the headstock, black basses don't reallysound better for metal, and Ashley SImpson can't really sing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members megadan Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 I was going to say something about batterys not loosing voltage until the end of their life... but it looks like you covered it in your edit... It's a tiny matter, really... once you've been told something like this, there's no way to distinguish actual tonal differences from a placebo effect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Originally posted by megadan It's a tiny matter, really... once you've been told something like this, there's no way to distinguish actual tonal differences from a placebo effect... Yep, Placebo effect also sells lots of gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PaulyWally Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Originally posted by lug Correct, but to suggest that circuits were designed to operate at a certain "sagged" voltage level would mean that the circuit was designed to operate during only a certain part of a battery's life span, say from 3/5ths to 4/5ths of it's life span since the roll off in a somewhat linear fashon. If this were the case, you would have to have "pre-drained" batteries to get a certain sound. I highly doubt any circuit designer would build something like this. For the most part, I agree. But... two things: 1.) Headroom is important in analog electronics. Theoretically, the pre-amp in my example could operate anywhere from 6.1 volts, to Eleventy Billion Volts. The high-end voltage doesn't matter, as long as it's above the 6 volts required to boost a 2-volt signal to 6. If you're ANYWHERE above that 6 volts... there will be no distortion. 2.) Some distortion/fuzz boxes (for example) actually do depend greatly on where a battery's charge is (especially older ones like the Dallas Arbiter that Jimi Hendrix used). There was one pre-amp transister followed by another overdrive transistor (the rest was caps and resistors). The overdrive transistor couldn't clip the signal unless it was large enough to surpass that transistor's supply voltage. If the battery was drained enough... the output sound would be fairly clean. On the other hand... if the supply voltage was larger, so would the pre-amp signal, and the clipping would occur sooner. Fretless suggested that Jimi pre-drained his batteries. That makes complete sense if he wanted a "soft-clip" as compared to a much harder clip. Now... a lot of companies make fuzz boxes to get that sound Jimi had. If they're all analog circuits... the power supply will determine to a fair extent, just how much classic "fuzz" you're going to get on the output. Edit: Also, the more complex an analog circuit gets, the more heavily they rely on supply voltage. With multiple amplifying/attenuating stages, then yes... any sway from (say) 8.5-9.5 volts could make a large enough difference. I wasn't saying 3/5 to 4/5 of a battery's life. But if the circuit was designed around a 9-volt supply... then I WILL say that the designer made the circuit to operate at 4/5 to 5/5 of the battery's life. Originally posted by lug As far as rail voltage goes, many people buy into the mysticism that different batteries cause the rail voltage to effect the sound, but are then fine with the wall wart AC adapter that comes with the pedal. This source is an AC signal that has been stepped down, rectified and the filtered by caps to approximate a true DC level. No where NEAR as clean as a battery's output. No argument out of me there. Originally posted by lug I would also like to point out that Fenders don't have dead spots because of the name on the headstock, black basses don't reallysound better for metal, and Ashley SImpson can't really sing. Oh thank Gawd!!! I thought I was the only one that couldn't stand her voice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassment zombie Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Alkalines DEFINITELY sound harsh, and while you're at it, if you don't want a totally crap and harsh sound, you'll do yourself and your audience right by using Tara Labs cables. Good musicians shouldn't be victims to bad tone - hurry while supplies last! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Originally posted by PaulyWally For the most part, I agree. But... two things: 1.) Headroom is important in analog electronics. Theoretically, the pre-amp in my example could operate anywhere from 6.1 volts, to Eleventy Billion Volts. The high-end voltage doesn't matter, as long as it's above the 6 volts required to boost a 2-volt signal to 6. If you're ANYWHERE above that 6 volts... there will be no distortion. 2.) Some distortion/fuzz boxes (for example) actually do depend greatly on where a battery's charge is (especially older ones like the Dallas Arbiter that Jimi Hendrix used). There was one pre-amp transister followed by another overdrive transistor (the rest was caps and resistors). The overdrive transistor couldn't clip the signal unless it was large enough to surpass that transistor's supply voltage. If the battery was drained enough... the output sound would be fairly clean. On the other hand... if the supply voltage was larger, so would the pre-amp signal, and the clipping would occur sooner. Fretless suggested that Jimi pre-drained his batteries. That makes complete sense if he wanted a "soft-clip" as compared to a much harder clip. Now... a lot of companies make fuzz boxes to get that sound Jimi had. If they're all analog circuits... the power supply will determine to a fair extent, just how much classic "fuzz" you're going to get on the output. Absolutely agree with 1) While 2) may be true, it would certainly be an unintended anomaly, not a design choice and the type of battery wouldn't matter, just the voltage level it was producing at the time. Other than saying type A discharges faster so you can get to the sound you want quicker than with type B, the difference shouldn't be noticeable. The current pull on the batter shouldn't be enough to "sag" it unless you plan on really hot batteries being changed 3 time a show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 311IncubusCKY Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 i never though of it as the pedals being designed to operate at a certain "life point" but that it was an observation made.i think someone had a dying battery in their fuzz box, and liked the sound better then a full battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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