Members bbl Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 I think this is a good topic to discuss. Is it better for your bass tone to have: 1. A great stage rig and an average PA system, or2. An average stage rig an a great PA system?
Members ianick Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 I would rather have a great PA system. Better to have everyone in the venue think you sound great than to be the only person there that thinks you do.
Members Emprov Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 I'd rather have a great PA rig and no bass rig. How's that?
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted September 6, 2005 CMS Author Posted September 6, 2005 A great PA is probably preferred, simply because if the PA sucks, everything...vocals and all instruments will suck from the audience perspective. Even in tiny venues that a stage rig can carry, you'd still have to deal with crap vocals. Even as a bassist I'd prefer mediocre bass tone and a great overall mix in the house.
Members Ole Man Blues Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 I play mainly in church and I go through the PA system. A Yamaha PA at a 1000 watts and use my SWR WM15 as a monitor. Works really great.... OMB
Members bbl Posted September 6, 2005 Author Members Posted September 6, 2005 OK, so with good PA speakers, should I (er, we) be able to "feel" the bass? Right now, I'd say our PA speakers are questionable - they're a pair of old Bullfrogs with a 12 and a 10. Not bad, we can hear the bass very well, with lots of mids and highs, but NO low end rumble.
Members bbl Posted September 6, 2005 Author Members Posted September 6, 2005 Originally posted by Emprov I'd rather have a great PA rig and no bass rig. How's that? No monitor?
Members brake Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 Buy a great bass rig. You -will- run into venues and shows and situations where you need a good backline. Not every show is gonna have a huge PA - imagine the smallest dive you've ever played in. They'd probably have laughed at you if you showed up with your bass and a DI box.
Members timmerz Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 bbl, I know that Bullfrog system....those are excellent PA speakers, as long as you don't try to get a rumble out of them....it's not going to happen.If you're committed to keeping that sysytem, start looking into a pair of Yamaha or B52 subs, and a 600-rms-watt or more power amp, and run the subs out of a crossover right off the main board. You're looking at about a $1,000 investment, but the frikkin' difference in the sound will be the difference between a decent band and a GREAT band....been there!We are using a full-on Mackie system, the biggest they offer for club and small outdoor festivals, with twin subs and a 32-channel board, and everything's self-powered, and I wouldn't have it any other way....we each put about $1200 of our hard-earned money into that system, and we are proud to hit the stage with it....
Members Emprov Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 Originally posted by bbl No monitor? IEM's.
Members zachoff Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 For me, my rig is there for stage volume. The sound guys rarely have the monitors loud enough for me to hear over everything else & normally get pissy when I tell them I can't hear myself.
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted September 6, 2005 CMS Author Posted September 6, 2005 Originally posted by timmerz bbl, I know that Bullfrog system....those are excellent PA speakers, as long as you don't try to get a rumble out of them....it's not going to happen.If you're committed to keeping that sysytem, start looking into a pair of Yamaha or B52 subs, and a 600-rms-watt or more power amp, and run the subs out of a crossover right off the main board. You're looking at about a $1,000 investment, but the frikkin' difference in the sound will be the difference between a decent band and a GREAT band....been there!We are using a full-on Mackie system, the biggest they offer for club and small outdoor festivals, with twin subs and a 32-channel board, and everything's self-powered, and I wouldn't have it any other way....we each put about $1200 of our hard-earned money into that system, and we are proud to hit the stage with it.... Yamaha and B-52 are low on the list of products I'd recommend for subs. Think Yorkville, Peavey SP, JBL Mpro 400 for good value subs that deliver the goods. bbl, with good PA, you'll feel the thump if the kick, and hear and feel the rumble of the low-B on the bass. This requires a relatively large investment (in relation to the rest of the system) in subs and their amps and processing gear.
Members bville Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 In large venues, stage rigs are used for monitoring purposes only. Regardless of how good the PA is, you should have a good bass sound on stage, and, from previous experience, you seldom find a good monitor system or engineer that will do justice to your bass sound. And in smaller venues you will be hard pressed to find a good PA that will reproduce your bass sounds faithfully.
Members J. Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 Yes. If you have truly professional and modern PA system operated by a skilled technician, the stage rig is no longer relevant. All you really need at that point is a little combo to use as a personal monitor. Heck, you could get by just fine with a DI and a monitor wedge. Unfortunately there are many places without a truly professional PA. Having a good stage rig helps in these cases, but it certainly can't make up for the lack of PA. In that light, having a viable stage rig is still a necessity for working musicians doing the dive bar circuit. A lot of times stage rigs can be a hinderance to good PA operation. Just ask my guitarists and his obnoxiously loud halfstack with ego-attached volume control.
Members bville Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 Originally posted by J. A lot of times stage rigs can be a hinderance to good PA operation. Just ask my guitarists and his obnoxiously loud halfstack with ego-attached volume control. Very true:D I've worked with too many guitar players who think they should be the only ones heard. I've also been in situations where the stage volume was louder than the PA. It's sad that most musicians can't show a little control when it comes to stage volume.
Members 82Daion Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 My experience is that a good backline will overcome a bad PA anytime. The last time I went direct through the PA, I got noise-Noise-NOISE, and my monitor sound really stank, although the house sound was really good. Why not have a good stage rig AND a good PA, eh?
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted September 6, 2005 CMS Author Posted September 6, 2005 Originally posted by 82Daion My experience is that a good backline will overcome a bad PA anytime. The last time I went direct through the PA, I got noise-Noise-NOISE, and my monitor sound really stank, although the house sound was really good. Why not have a good stage rig AND a good PA, eh? How's backline gonna fix the vocals. Nothing matters more than good vocals...if they're crap, your band sounds like amatuers no matter how bitchin' the stacks might be.
Members bassment zombie Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 Originally posted by bbl I think this is a good topic to discuss.Is it better for your bass tone to have:1. A great stage rig and an average PA system, or2. An average stage rig an a great PA system? "Is the Stage Rig becoming obsolete?" Not anytime too soon. Here in Boston, the vast majority of venues you'll play only have a PA for vocals.
Members bville Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 Originally posted by Craigv How's backline gonna fix the vocals. Nothing matters more than good vocals...if they're crap, your band sounds like amatuers no matter how bitchin' the stacks might be. Actually, better sound systems are less tolerant of bad anything (vocals, drumming, etc.) Higher-end systems reproduce sound more faithfully and your mistakes will be heard loud and clear.
Members timmerz Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 Craig, I'll take your word on the value issue, I can just speak from what I found when my last band and I went out looking for subs a couple of years ago...Guitar Center had both the Yamaha's and the B-52's at a very reasonable cost, and we went with a used Crown power amp and a used crossover (don't remember the brand) and got subs added to our Yamaha P.A. for a total of $750...sounded excellent! I should have added to my post above that regarding the PA vs. on-stage sound: we have a magnificent PA, as I described it above, and I still own a 1000 rms watt stack with which I set my own volume and tone on-stage. The sound guy takes a lead off the Peavey Max preamp in my rack, and feathers me into the mix however much it's needed for the crowd. My guys in the band want to feel all the bass there is, and it's tough to get that feeling through the monitors...so my stage volume is full-coverage, not just a monitoring factor for me....
Members Darkstorm Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 Guitar or bass tone should come from the instrument and processor of choice imo. With the amp and speakers just reproducing that well imo. Most of the bands I know let the clubs PA/Foh do all the work sound wise. With any stage amps just being monitor. For example, I'll be running the lasers for a band playing the grenada this month, & I'll have more gear to set up then the musicians. Cause theyre just bringing the instruments (laptop plus novation Xstation controller, & guitars) whereas I'll be bringing 4 club lasers and stands for each. Lol. So I'll have twice as many items to carry in and out. lol.
Members NeonVomit Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 Good stage rig will always help. I just played a gig in a decent-sized venue with a pretty crappy PA and {censored}ty monitors, but my GK head and Ashdown cab combination really helped save the day.
Members Sixgun77 Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 My sound comes from my bass, preamp, and speakers. Going DI into the PA leaves me no chance to have my sound made the way I want it to. I'd rather have it sound my way than have some soundman dicking with my tone. The audience should hear the same thing that comes out of my speakers, only through the PA. Besides, I've never played anywhere where my rig can't keep up with the room.
Members Emprov Posted September 6, 2005 Members Posted September 6, 2005 Originally posted by Sixgun77 I'd rather have it sound my way than have some soundman dicking with my tone. A good sound guy armed with a good PA will make your FOH tone sound like heaven, much better than you could ever do from a stage rig, (all things considered).
Members bassplayinguy Posted September 7, 2005 Members Posted September 7, 2005 i despise runnnin thru the PA with a DI, if youre gonna put me through the PA, its gonna be with a miked cab as much as possible, my cab adds just as much character to my sound as my amp does, if they dont Mike it, i run DI but crank my amp on stage and use the cab to fill the room so the bass isnt as loud thru the PA
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