WTF - Broad Optimism in Iraq....

[Craig Vecchione]

Originally posted by takeout If we'd invested all the money spent in Iraq on alternative fuel research and fuel economy incentives, we'd still be acting in our own best interest AND be free(r) of Middle Eastern control on our energy policy. I could be driving a 70mpg car right now.

 

 

 

So the billions spent in decades previous couldn't do this, but suddenly a few billion spent now could?

[takeout]

Originally posted by Craigv So the billions spent in decades previous couldn't do this, but suddenly a few billion spent now could?

Got numbers to back up these alleged "billions"?

[cthulhu0]

Originally posted by lug We have a country as tied to us as a wife (say England) and we would do nothing to help? That's just rediculous. We will help whomever it is in our best interests to help first. No other country on earth would do any different so why do you have a different standard for us?

 

england smengland. saudi arabia. the country that what, 16 out of 18 hijackers were from? which is actually a fundamentalist state? where 50% of the monarchy sides with osama? remember him? beared guy, directly connected with the house of saud AND bush?

 

the whole thing about this war, the entire thing, is that its NOT in our best interests. this thing has been nothing but a disaster. the cost of this war is $230,000,000,000 (and counting!), to do... something, in iraq. meanwhile, your children are suffering the breakdown of the educational system, residents of new orleans are still homeless, social security is being drained, our government is being looted and turned over to private enterprise. not the money, the actual government.

 

and what have we gained? we made an enemy out of a tactic. we;ve broken a country or two. we've alienated everyone except england (who is looking forward to having a totalitarian monarchy again). the economy is meh. its better! oh yes! but its still down from where we were. the treasury has gone from positive to extreeeemely negative. we;ve lost our civil rights in exchange for dubious "homeland" security.

 

all togather i have a higher standard for us, because WE:RE SUPPOSED TO BE BETTER THAN THIS. why do you hate your country so much that you want it to be no better than everyone else? we're supposed to be the good guys, remember?

[chris-dax]

can I just say....



Go Iraq....!!

[lug]

Originally posted by cthulhu0 england smengland. saudi arabia. the country that what, 16 out of 18 hijackers were from? which is actually a fundamentalist state? where 50% of the monarchy sides with osama? remember him? beared guy, directly connected with the house of saud AND bush? the whole thing about this war, the entire thing, is that its NOT in our best interests. this thing has been nothing but a disaster. the cost of this war is $230,000,000,000 (and counting!), to do... something, in iraq. meanwhile, your children are suffering the breakdown of the educational system, residents of new orleans are still homeless, social security is being drained, our government is being looted and turned over to private enterprise. not the money, the actual government. and what have we gained? we made an enemy out of a tactic. we;ve broken a country or two. we've alienated everyone except england (who is looking forward to having a totalitarian monarchy again). the economy is meh. its better! oh yes! but its still down from where we were. the treasury has gone from positive to extreeeemely negative. we;ve lost our civil rights in exchange for dubious "homeland" security. all togather i have a higher standard for us, because WE:RE SUPPOSED TO BE BETTER THAN THIS. why do you hate your country so much that you want it to be no better than everyone else? we're supposed to be the good guys, remember?

 

The hyjackers were from Saudi Arabia, so? Because Jeffrey Dahmer grew up in Milwaukee doesn't mean people from Milwaukee want to eat me. My kids aren't suffering, The residents of New Orleans are in really nice hotels in Houston and are recieving more aid than has ever been granted by the Feds. The Dems are stopping any real progress on the SS front for political reasons (not that the Repubs would do any different in a minority situation) and the economy is gangbusters dispite the huricanes and gas prices and everyother thing that happened. You can't logically blame Bush for the ressession he inherited without giving him credit for the upswing (I personally don't believe either party effects the economy in any great way, they just take credit/pass blame for it) The spending IS Bush's real weak spot but is bitched about much less than all the made up voodoo the Dems come up with because it doesn't inspire passion and and heart felt responses. I got news for you, the heart ins't the correct organ to make your decisions from. If you think I hate my country, you are very confused. I will garantee I love and respect it far more than you.

[cthulhu0]

Originally posted by lug The hyjackers were from Saudi Arabia, so? Because Jeffrey Dahmer grew up in Milwaukee doesn't mean people from Milwaukee want to eat me. My kids aren't suffering, The residents of New Orleans are in really nice hotels in Houston and are recieving more aid than has ever been granted by the Feds. The Dems are stopping any real progress on the SS front for political reasons (not that the Repubs would do any different in a minority situation) and the economy is gangbusters dispite the huricanes and gas prices and everyother thing that happened. You can't logically blame Bush for the ressession he inherited without giving him credit for the upswing (I personally don't believe either party effects the economy in any great way, they just take credit/pass blame for it) The spending IS Bush's real weak spot but is bitched about much less than all the made up voodoo the Dems come up with because it doesn't inspire passion and and heart felt responses. I got news for you, the heart ins't the correct organ to make your decisions from. If you think I hate my country, you are very confused. I will garantee I love and respect it far more than you.

 

first parts first. that the hijackkers were from saudi arabia. this goes back to your pearl harbor comparison. saudi arabians attacked us, why didn;t we attack saudi arabia? why did we instead attack iraq? even tho iraq didn;t have anything to do with it.

 

the economy is going gangbusters if you already have money. but the middle class is getting squeezed out. rich have their tax cuts, the poor still don;t have anything, but the middle class can;t afford a house.

 

your kids aren;t suffering... don;t care about the rest of the country? the country you and your kids will have to deal with? the country full of anti-intellectual christian fundamentalists? (but those are ok! they ain;t muslims!) plus, i'm assuming you are upper middle class, and your kids go to a moderately to very well off school in the 'burbs. i could be wrong.

 

frankly i can care less what the dems say about SS. i'm not a democrat. never said i was.

 

bush may not have inherited a recession. he inherited a huge surplus of cash. where'd it go? why was it

 

i respect you as a person lug, and i respect your stance on this. i just think that you are very wrong about this admin. and i too love this country. enuf that i don't want to see it ruined by this idiot in charge. i love the old, good, america. not this evil, weird, up is down, we;ve always been at war with eastasia america.

 

ok, the pdf maker is done, i'm going home. good arguing with you lug.

[beam]

Originally posted by chris-dax can I just say.... *snip*

 

 

 

Nice.

Again, lets not pretend that was the reason we went there.

[bbl]

Originally posted by chris-dax you obviously are incable of making any kind of coherent response to the topic of the post.... my suggestion....move on.... you're boring....and apparently have no opinion other than "anyone who doesn't agree with my enlightend opinion is a troll" But other than "you suck" you have nothing....completely blank.... But just so I can be compeletly clear....you, bbl, are a dim bulb....you can't keep up.....you are an idiot..... try making some kind of intelligble statement about the post.... or just shut the {censored} up and piss off....c-d

All that for simply calling you a troll.

Kisses.

[chris-dax]

Originally posted by bbl All that for simply calling you a troll. Kisses.

ok...buh-bie...run along now

[chris-dax]

Originally posted by beam Nice. Again, lets not pretend that was the reason we went there.

I'm not pretending anything, beam.

The topic here is optimism regarding the situation in Iraq....I know it's hard for a hater to see anything good about anything....but guess what....

the people of Iraq and Afghanistan are moving toward self government and freedom....and that is something the whole world should be celebrating and supporting.

You can piss and moan all day long but that doesn't change this fact...

A few short months ago both nations were suffering greatly at the hands of brutal, murderous dictators and lawless thugs. Today those people in Irag and Afghanistan have a very bright future thanks to the foreign policy of George Bush and the blood sweat and tears of the men and women fighting to make it happen.

Sadaam is behind bars for the rest of his life and thousands of his henchmen and sympathetic terrorists are dead.

Just like the Germans and Japanese and South Koreans before them, those people in the Iraq and Afghanistan will find (are finding) a way to make democracy work for them and their future generations and this world will be a better, safer, more peaceful place because of it.

One day we will see Iraq and Afghanistan take their rightful place in the world as a productive and prosperous nations and they will be beacons of freedom and hope to millions of their neighbors throught the mideast.

So that's why I started the thread, beam. And that's why I posted the picture of the Iraq woman.....because I understand what you don't....

America is the greatest force for good in this world today. With all our warts and human frailities, all of our wrong motives, stupid selfishness and whatever else....still we are the greatest force among all nations today for freedom and peace.

Viva freedom, viva Iraq

[beam]

Originally posted by chris-dax I'm not pretending anything, beam.

 

 

I didn't mean to imply that you did. However, anyone who thinks that the reason we went to war with this country was to liberate it's citizens, is sorely mistaken. That isn't the reason the president made the call, that isn't the reason congress voted to support it, and that isn't the reason the American people were supportive of it in the onset. Notice how popularity for the entire campaign has dwindled as the focus has shifted from our own personal interest in security...to what is best for the Iraqi people? Every poll I've seen(poke fun at sources all you like, but there have been dozens of polls and they can't all be rigged by "liberals") has American support for the conflict over there at lower than 50%, where as it was much higher in the past when it was becuase we were over there for our own interests.

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by chris-dax The topic here is optimism regarding the situation in Iraq....I know it's hard for a hater to see anything good about anything....but guess what.... the people of Iraq and Afghanistan are moving toward self government and freedom....and that is something the whole world should be celebrating and supporting.

 

 

Well, first off, I'd say that you don't know jack {censored} about me. There are very few things I hate, beligerant people making assumptions on topics they know nothing about is one of them. You are fully entitled to your opinion, but lets not for even the smallest fraction of a second assume that I "hate" anything you are remotely aware of.

Yes, the people of Afghanistan and Iraq are moving towards self-government and freedom. I agree this is a good thing, and I'm not sorry to see it happen. My point is that if we want to delude ourselves into thinking that this justifies the war, it's truly tragic. Do you know how many countries out there have citizens suffering under the rule of a ruthless dicatator? Dozens. Do you like the idea of sending our armed forces everywhere oppression exists so that we can bring freedom to these people? I'm sorry, but that isn't the job most of these fine men and women signed on for. We should at no point think that we went over there to help anyone but ourselves, but because of our actions it was our responsibility to help these people reform their government. Our actions may have had positive results, but don't confuse this with the reason we went there to begin with. It sets a very dangerous precident.

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by chris-dax You can piss and moan all day long but that doesn't change this fact...

 

 

Well, I think if I ever get to a point where I'm pissing and moaning all day long, I think I'll be more worried about the fact that I should be seeing a urologist, rather than that I might have said something that sent you into a tizzy.

 

 

 

Originally posted by chris-dax A few short months ago both nations were suffering greatly at the hands of brutal, murderous dictators and lawless thugs. Today those people in Irag and Afghanistan have a very bright future thanks to the foreign policy of George Bush and the blood sweat and tears of the men and women fighting to make it happen.

 

 

 

I agree, that not long ago the people of both these nations where in dire straights, and yes it's because of our actions that this has changed. Again, my point was...we made those actions to serve ourselves, not the people over there. You think if it was always a matter of liberating an oppressed people halfway around the world, the American people would have gone for it? I hardly think so. If that was the case, there would be a constant outcry for action all around the globe from the majority of our citizens. The majority of our citizens don't care that much, IMO.

 

 

 

Originally posted by chris-dax Sadaam is behind bars for the rest of his life and thousands of his henchmen and sympathetic terrorists are dead.

 

 

We'll see what happens to him, but yes he is better locked up.

Yup, we've done a fine job of cleaning out some of the people who would wish us ill. Perhaps one day we will think about treating the cause, rather than the symptom. Lucky enough for us though, we possess the most powerful military force the world has ever seen.

 

 

 

Originally posted by chris-dax Just like the Germans and Japanese and South Koreans before them, those people in the Iraq and Afghanistan will find (are finding) a way to make democracy work for them and their future generations and this world will be a better, safer, more peaceful place because of it.

 

 

 

Yea, see above.

 

 

 

Originally posted by chris-dax One day we will see Iraq and Afghanistan take their rightful place in the world as a productive and prosperous nations and they will be beacons of freedom and hope to millions of their neighbors throught the mideast.

 

 

Heartwarming, but I think its a bit premature to be making statements like this as if it were fact.

 

 

 

Originally posted by chris-dax So that's why I started the thread, beam. And that's why I posted the picture of the Iraq woman.....because I understand what you don't....

 

 

Again, lets not pretend you know anything about what I understand or do not understand. I think if you had to really lay out what I understand in any sort of cohesive statement, you'd fall flat on your face.

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by chris-dax America is the greatest force for good in this world today. With all our warts and human frailities, all of our wrong motives, stupid selfishness and whatever else....still we are the greatest force among all nations today for freedom and peace.

 

 

I'll agree with most of that.

Just for the record, I don't think what we are doing over there is wrong, and I think setting a timetable for pulling out is dangerous. But the moment the Iraqi government can take care of itself, or the moment their new elected leader tells us to hit the road, we need to leave. Being an occupying force is horrible for the moral of the people there, and the troops that are on the ground. We should stay until they are self-sufficient, and not one day longer.

 

Just a word of advice Chris, when you resort to actually having to tell someone to piss off in your discussion, any credit you had in making your argument drops to about zero. If you can't make an argument without resorting to an ad hominem attack, you should just ignore the thread completely. Everytime you insult someone because you don't like what they say, or even if you return an insult because someone else threw one at you first.....your argument is what gets lost. If you want to actually come off as being reasonable and have people actually not roll their eyes at your posts, you should stick to making points...not pissing on other people's words.

[lug]

So, to sum up this thread we can all agree that Bush is the greatest president since Lincoln (another great republican president responsible for freeing millions). I'm glad that's finally settled, the end.

[filterthing]

How can you compare the changes the Japanese and Germans went through to the current situation? I don't even want to go near South Korea and your reference to that. Have you read any books or history about WWII and Korea? And the other question I have for chris-dax... do you even play bass?

[beam]

Originally posted by lug So, to sum up this thread we can all agree that Clinton is the greatest president since Lincoln (who would be a Democrat today, having been responsible for freeing millions). I'm glad that's finally settled, the end.

 

[lug]

Originally posted by beam

Clinton only freed Willy.

[beam]

Originally posted by lug Clinton only freed Willy.

You know I was just teasing you
I think we can both agree there have been much better Republican Presidents since Lincoln than our current leader

[lug]

Originally posted by beam You know I was just teasing you I think we can both agree there have been much better Republican Presidents since Lincoln than our current leader

certainly much better publicised ones.

[beam]

Originally posted by lug certainly much better publicised ones.

Among other aspects

[bbl]

Originally posted by chris-dax I'm not pretending anything, beam. The topic here is optimism regarding the situation in Iraq....I know it's hard for a hater to see anything good about anything....but guess what.... the people of Iraq and Afghanistan are moving toward self government and freedom....and that is something the whole world should be celebrating and supporting. You can piss and moan all day long but that doesn't change this fact... A few short months ago both nations were suffering greatly at the hands of brutal, murderous dictators and lawless thugs. Today those people in Irag and Afghanistan have a very bright future thanks to the foreign policy of George Bush and the blood sweat and tears of the men and women fighting to make it happen. Sadaam is behind bars for the rest of his life and thousands of his henchmen and sympathetic terrorists are dead. Just like the Germans and Japanese and South Koreans before them, those people in the Iraq and Afghanistan will find (are finding) a way to make democracy work for them and their future generations and this world will be a better, safer, more peaceful place because of it. One day we will see Iraq and Afghanistan take their rightful place in the world as a productive and prosperous nations and they will be beacons of freedom and hope to millions of their neighbors throught the mideast. So that's why I started the thread, beam. And that's why I posted the picture of the Iraq woman.....because I understand what you don't.... America is the greatest force for good in this world today. With all our warts and human frailities, all of our wrong motives, stupid selfishness and whatever else....still we are the greatest force among all nations today for freedom and peace. Viva freedom, viva Iraq

Those are all good things. Yes, let's be realistic and let's not focus on only the negative, but understand the whole picture, including the positives. I'm all for that.

But the truth is that while there is progress in Iraq, that country is clearly headed for civil war, regardless of when we pull out.

We invaded a country and occupied it on false pretenses.

We invaded and occupied a country without an exit plan. I'm not saying we needed a timetable, but at least some type of plan. There was none.

If we knew then what we know now, we would not have invaded and occupied Iraq.

I'm an accountant, so it's my nature to question the cost vs. benefit. I cannot see how the benefits of this war justify the costs. No freakin' way. I would love to see that, but it's just not there.

But yes, we should not overlook the positives, as long as we're realistic about what those positives are. I don't see a "bright future" for Iraqis with a civil war pending.

[bbl]

Originally posted by beam Just a word of advice Chris, when you resort to actually having to tell someone to piss off in your discussion, any credit you had in making your argument drops to about zero. If you can't make an argument without resorting to an ad hominem attack, you should just ignore the thread completely. Everytime you insult someone because you don't like what they say, or even if you return an insult because someone else threw one at you first.....your argument is what gets lost. If you want to actually come off as being reasonable and have people actually not roll their eyes at your posts, you should stick to making points...not pissing on other people's words.

Thanks, beam.

Chris, someone suggested you were trolling so it got me thinking about some of your prior political threads. I thought about the time you called out every Democrat as an "enemy of the USA" if they didn't publicly denounce Dennis Durbin and his comments about Gitmo. So I called you troll.

I didn't think it was that offensive, but I guess you did, because you responded by calling me a lot of things. So, I apologize for calling you a troll. I retract it.

Beam is right, your attack on me doesn't serve you well. I hope you'll retract them, but regardless, no hard feelings.

Geoff

[Craig Vecchione]

Originally posted by bbl Those are all good things. Yes, let's be realistic and let's not focus on only the negative, but understand the whole picture, including the positives. I'm all for that. But the truth is that while there is progress in Iraq, that country is clearly headed for civil war, regardless of when we pull out. We invaded a country and occupied it on false pretenses. We invaded and occupied a country without an exit plan. I'm not saying we needed a timetable, but at least some type of plan. There was none. If we knew then what we know now, we would not have invaded and occupied Iraq. I'm an accountant, so it's my nature to question the cost vs. benefit. I cannot see how the benefits of this war justify the costs. No freakin' way. I would love to see that, but it's just not there. But yes, we should not overlook the positives, as long as we're realistic about what those positives are. I don't see a "bright future" for Iraqis with a civil war pending.

 

 

It's obvious, at least to me, that we were going in one way or another. And the reason isn't 9/11, isn't oil per se, and isn't WMD. For years the US and allies have recognized that the Middle East has grown increasingly unstable due to terrorism and politics that favor unrest if not outright civil war. Iraq was, back during Clinton's first term, identified among the worst offenders, but also the easiest target, both strategically and politically (thanks to SH's invasion of Kuwait). Establishing a successful democracy would lead people in surrounding countries to question their own oppressive regime/governments, and possibly spread some positive change.

 

It was always understood this change would likely be bloody and take time. Clinton, with his balls cut off by the Lewinsky and Whitewater issues, wasn't about to embark on this in his second term, but there's little doubt that he would deploy considering how many military actions he authorized (most of any US prez).

[B-Bottom]

Originally posted by bbl But the truth is that while there is progress in Iraq, that country is clearly headed for civil war, regardless of when we pull out.

 

 

Where are you getting this from? I actually read yesterday that hardly anyone in Iraq thinks they are headed in that direction.

[cthulhu0]

Originally posted by Craigv It's obvious, at least to me, that we were going in one way or another. And the reason isn't 9/11, isn't oil per se, and isn't WMD. For years the US and allies have recognized that the Middle East has grown increasingly unstable due to terrorism and politics that favor unrest if not outright civil war. Iraq was, back during Clinton's first term, identified among the worst offenders, but also the easiest target, both strategically and politically (thanks to SH's invasion of Kuwait). Establishing a successful democracy would lead people in surrounding countries to question their own oppressive regime/governments, and possibly spread some positive change. It was always understood this change would likely be bloody and take time. Clinton, with his balls cut off by the Lewinsky and Whitewater issues, wasn't about to embark on this in his second term, but there's little doubt that he would deploy considering how many military actions he authorized (most of any US prez).

 

so you are saying the president lied to congress?

[Crescent Seven]

Originally posted by cthulhu0 so you are saying the president lied to congress?

 

 

You interpreted that to mean "the president lied to Congress"? Or is that all you wanted it to mean? Did you even read what he wrote beyond the first sentence before you jumped on the quote button?

Something tells me you didn't. That being the nature of pretty much everything you've posted in this thread, you know, the talking points you got from the school newspaper.

 

So you think Bush lied. OK, that's 2003's news. You can keep pumping that {censored} if you want, but the majority of the people in this country have moved beyond that. I'll start paying attention to the "Bush lied" line of {censored} as soon as Congress starts the impeachment process, which they wont, because they all agreed with him, and they all read the intelligence. They all agreed with Clinton and the intelligence he had, also. Did Clinton lie about it too?

Explaining this stuff to people like you is a waste of time, because no matter how reasonable the argument, you'll just put your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALLALALALALA" like a little {censored}ing kid.

C7

[johnny6644]

Originally posted by Crescent Seven You interpreted that to mean "the president lied to Congress"? Or is that all you wanted it to mean? Did you even read what he wrote beyond the first sentence before you jumped on the quote button? Something tells me you didn't. That being the nature of pretty much everything you've posted in this thread, you know, the talking points you got from the school newspaper. So you think Bush lied. OK, that's 2003's news. You can keep pumping that {censored} if you want, but the majority of the people in this country have moved beyond that. I'll start paying attention to the "Bush lied" line of {censored} as soon as Congress starts the impeachment process, which they wont, because they all agreed with him, and they all read the intelligence. They all agreed with Clinton and the intelligence he had, also. Did Clinton lie about it too? Explaining this stuff to people like you is a waste of time, because no matter how reasonable the argument, you'll just put your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALLALALALALA" like a little {censored}ing kid. C7

 

 

AP - ....his presidency remains plagued by widespread doubts about his handling of the war in Iraq, with 52 percent saying the Bush administration intentionally misled the public when its officials made the case for war.

Despite Bush's recent efforts to explain his Iraq policy, 61 percent of the poll respondents said the administration has still not clearly explained what the U.S. goals are in Iraq. Sixty-eight percent said they don't believe Bush has a plan for victory, compared to 25 percent.

 

Americans say overwhelmingly they are still waiting to hear the Bush Administration clearly articulate its goals in Iraq and a strategy for victory, and it is the war that motivates most Americans who disapprove of how Bush is doing his job.

 

According to the survey, 53 percent say the war is the single biggest reason why they disapprove of the job Bush is doing as president.