Holocaust a "myth"? (long post)

[NeonVomit]

Originally posted by Moody Johnny I guess I have missed the change of Iran's president. I liked the previous guy. You know, the one with glasses and black turban.

Mohammed Khatami. Reformer guy. He was good, tried to actually move foreward, but was constantly blocked by parliament. His two terms were up though, so they made way for this guy.

Great.

[Zamfir]

Originally posted by B-Bottom How is Israel

[lug]

Originally posted by Zamfir Where, oh where, do you get your sources of information to come up with these judgments? Israel is not hated "specifically because they are Jewish, that's it." You had hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees dumped on the British mandate in Palestine after WWII, to go with the emigres from before the war. Mostly European refugees and emigres, I might add, which is one reason why Ahmadinejad has a tiny bit of a point if you look behind his incendiary words and other indefensible comments. A minority of those Jewish settlers used terrorism before the war to shoot and bomb British officials and soldiers, btw. They got a state in 1948 for their efforts. Their Palestinian neighbors *in that same desert territory* didn't. Yes, there was a war for Israeli independence - but ask yourself how willing you'd be as an American to cede a large chunk of the Southwest, if you were a landowner there, to Mexican immigrants (or the reverse, by Spanish-Mexicans and Native Americans, when the Europeans first came)? Especially if the UN told you to put up with it? Now ask yourself what lessons you as a Palestinian would draw from that experience in state-formation as you are herded off your land and farms into refugee camps, either from 1948 or from the 1967 war that produced the occupied territories? Violence works, especially if backed by large international powers who control international organizations at that time? Meanwhile, the helicopter missiles, rockets and tank shells that slam into your apartment buildings and kill your family and neighbors as collateral damage, are the result of a whopping asymmetric imbalance of 2 - 3 billion dollars per year, sent by the US to Israel in the form of military aid? Don't you have a right to defend yourself against that huge military machine if you had nothing to do with Hamas? While you and the other 8 million or so Palestinians have nothing like the power to manage foreign trade relations (that's solely the purview of the Israeli government, who aren't about to funnel Coke and Xerox plants and jobs into Palestinian territories)? And in the 1980s, Israeli government policy is to build settlements on your former land that they know is not, and will not be, theirs on a permanent basis? Settlements whose abandonment can easily be stopped as a result of Israeli politics? Now, after all that, some of the same Israelis who deplored the ghettos of Nazi-occupied Europe are building a wall that makes it harder, consuming hours of every day, for you to get to your job or visit your friends? Edit: And the American media rarely mentions most of this history from the Palestinian point of view? I don't advocate violence, certainly not suicide bombing, but if I'd lived through all that, I'd be pretty pissed. Food for thought.

I blame the Turks for the whole mess!

[NeonVomit]

Originally posted by lug I blame the Turks for the whole mess!

Welcome to the mind of the average Greek Cypriot

[Zamfir]

Originally posted by lug I blame the Turks for the whole mess!

I don't know enough about the collapse of the Ottoman Empire down thataways, but it was a multi-ethnic administration before the Young Turks showed up and made a hash of things on the way to WW I.

Better press-gang The Lurker into service.

[lug]

Originally posted by Zamfir press-gang The Lurker into service.

Oh, that don't sound right!

[Zamfir]

Originally posted by lug Oh, that don't sound right!

He's easy!

Just gotta promise him some Florida sun, and 18 bucks of someone else's money to pay for a girl under the table...

[B-Bottom]

Originally posted by Zamfir Where, oh where, do you get your sources of information to come up with these judgments? Israel is not hated "specifically because they are Jewish, that's it." You had hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees dumped on the British mandate in Palestine after WWII, to go with the emigres from before the war. Mostly European refugees and emigres, I might add, which is one reason why Ahmadinejad has a tiny bit of a point if you look behind his incendiary words and other indefensible comments. A minority of those Jewish settlers used terrorism before the war to shoot and bomb British officials and soldiers, btw. They got a state in 1948 for their efforts. Their Palestinian neighbors *in that same desert territory* didn't. Yes, there was a war for Israeli independence - but ask yourself how willing you'd be as an American to cede a large chunk of the Southwest, if you were a landowner there, to Mexican immigrants (or the reverse, by Spanish-Mexicans and Native Americans, when the Europeans first came)? Especially if the UN told you to put up with it? Now ask yourself what lessons you as a Palestinian would draw from that experience in state-formation as you are herded off your land and farms into refugee camps, either from 1948 or from the 1967 war that produced the occupied territories? Violence works, especially if backed by large international powers who control international organizations at that time? Meanwhile, the helicopter missiles, rockets and tank shells that slam into your apartment buildings and kill your family and neighbors as collateral damage, are the result of a whopping asymmetric imbalance of 2 - 3 billion dollars per year, sent by the US to Israel in the form of military aid? Don't you have a right to defend yourself against that huge military machine if you had nothing to do with Hamas? While you and the other 8 million or so Palestinians have nothing like the power to manage foreign trade relations (that's solely the purview of the Israeli government, who aren't about to funnel Coke and Xerox plants and jobs into Palestinian territories)? And in the 1980s, Israeli government policy is to build settlements on your former land that they know is not, and will not be, theirs on a permanent basis? Settlements whose abandonment can easily be stopped as a result of Israeli politics? Now, after all that, some of the same Israelis who deplored the ghettos of Nazi-occupied Europe are building a wall that makes it harder, consuming hours of every day, for you to get to your job or visit your friends? Edit: And the American media rarely mentions most of this history from the Palestinian point of view? I don't advocate violence, certainly not suicide bombing, but if I'd lived through all that, I'd be pretty pissed. Food for thought.

 

 

Ok you may have a point that the sole reason they are hated isn't because they are Jewish, but everything does stem from that. And if you don't believe that than you should pay more attention to history and the rhetoric.

 

The state of Isreal was meant to be created for both Jews and Arabs sharing a common government. However that plan was rejected by the Arab leadership and they launched a guerilla war. The British had had enough at that point and pulled out. the surrounding Arab states then (while on the side of the Palestininans) launched 6 nations armies against them. Isreal ended up handing them their ass all and actually gained a lot of land out of it.

As far as the US giving up things to foreginers, well that is already happening. Am i pissed about it, sure. But I'm not going to strap a bomb to myself or a family member to show my frustrations.

Why shouldn't Isreal build a wall? Comparing them to Nazis and the Palestinians to the Jews in say the Warsaw ghetto is just ridiculious. It's their country, let them build a wall. the fact that they let any of them in at all is a testament to their willingness to work with these people.

And if they do fire a rocket and take out some millitants than good, if some locals get caught in the fray than yea it sucks but you know what, oh well. You've got to look at the big picture.

[Zamfir]

Originally posted by B-Bottom Ok you may have a point that the sole reason they are hated isn't because they are Jewish, but everything does stem from that.

That is one of the most amazingly and amusingly self-contradictory statements I have ever read.

And if you don't believe that than you should pay more attention to history and the rhetoric.

I have a hard time "believing" statements that make no logical sense.

I also find it funny that, one doctorate in a closely related discipline later, I'm being told to pay more attention to history and rhetoric, but never mind that.

The state of Isreal was meant to be created for both Jews and Arabs sharing a common government. However that plan was rejected by the Arab leadership and they launched a guerilla war. The British had had enough at that point and pulled out. the surrounding Arab states then (while on the side of the Palestininans) launched 6 nations armies against them. Isreal ended up handing them their ass all and actually gained a lot of land out of it.

I'm well aware of the 1947 UN partition plan, following the British withdrawal decision upon termination of their mandate in 1948.

But you have yet to give a compelling reason as to why the Palestinians should have accepted a UN decision - where they had no vote - that would mean simply giving up their places of residence, work, and farming? Simply because Europe was conveniently closing its doors and dumping Jewish refugees on one of the few spots in the world lacking representation in the UN to complain (at a time when the UN was easily dominated by the US and those very same Europeans)?

(Partition, btw, was a nice, sterile euphemism for internationally mandated ethnic cleansing - and after all, Europe didn't have to suffer the consequences in Palestine or in India with the Pakistani partition. But I digress.)

If you had faced that situation, after 30 + years of heavy Jewish emigration onto the land you'd worked, because Europe didn't want to keep its own former citizens, I bet you'd fight, too. Hell, I don't know *any* population in the world that would have tolerated such an international decision over their strong objections.

I'm also not sure where you're going with the "Israel kicked butt and grabbed land" comment, but it's weak enough as an argument that you may not want to try that one.

[As far as the US giving up things to foreginers, well that is already happening. Am i pissed about it, sure. But I'm not going to strap a bomb to myself or a family member to show my frustrations.

Wait forty years and have the UN that I don't think you respect, recognize a Mexican state in the lower 48. Then you'll discover new dimensions to being pissed. By the way, have a chat with the Native Americans to see what they think about those European immigrants creating states on their land over their objections.

Why shouldn't Isreal build a wall? Comparing them to Nazis and the Palestinians to the Jews in say the Warsaw ghetto is just ridiculious. It's their country, let them build a wall.

Ridiculous? OK, if you can't or won't see utterly logical comparisons, then I really don't think you should be telling me to pay more attention to history.

Because the Nazis built walls to isolate ethnic populations in "their country," correct? If you want to argue that most of their walls sprang up on occupied territory - guess what? So does a goodly part of the Israeli fence...

the fact that they let any of them in at all is a testament to their willingness to work with these people.

That is the second time you've made a rather unflattering comment about an entire population of people you've probably never met.

Here's the other one:
And I'm sure the Palestinians will do something very useful with that land that is given back to them.

Talk about a prejudgment with no supporting basis whatsoever. Frankly, you're teetering on the edge of racism here.

Along with earlier comments that imply the Palestinians couldn't cultivate land the way Israelis could.

And if they do fire a rocket and take out some millitants than good, if some locals get caught in the fray than yea it sucks but you know what, oh well. You've got to look at the big picture.

*I* have to look at the big picture? What do you think I've been doing, by painting an admittedly incomplete picture of the Palestinian point of view? And by the way - cavalier dismissal ("oh well") of the deaths of innocent people does not recommend your argument.

*You're* the one seemingly incapable of considering both sides to the equation, instead of assuming the Israelis are always right. Or that "everything" starts from hatred of Jews.

[Emprov]

You guys do admit that there's a whole lot more going on that just land issues don't you? I mean Islam has been at war with itself (or factions of) ever since the religeon has been around. This is not just about land, I'm guessing that the land is much like slavery in the US Civil War, the excuse to get down to business.

[Stu Pedasso]

Istanbul WAS Constantinople.

Why did Constantinople get 'the works'?

[bbl]

I blame religion, god dammit!!!

[Kaesh]

He is quoted so out of context on our media it's not even funny.
The old quote about wiping Israel off the world map was a direct response to Sharon threatening to bomb the {censored} out of Iran.
After the whole wide world got enraged at that, the Iranian newspaper headlines basically read: "What the {censored}?"

This one isn't much about context though as interpretation. He doesn't say the holocaust hasn't happened. If you actually take your goddamn time to read it he says so clearly. He refers to the myth AROUND the holocaust, not the holocaust itself being a myth.

[filterthing]

here is something I was thinking about: In order for Isreal to attack Iran, they have to fly through Iraq. Now, at this point we control the skys over Iraq. We would have to allow them to fly in Iraq's air space to attack Iran. Thus we would be a part of that attack. Just more reasons for the rest of the world to hate us. I say we just close up shop and protect our borders.

[78pbass]

Originally posted by filterthing here is something I was thinking about: In order for Isreal to attack Iran, they have to fly through Iraq. Now, at this point we control the skys over Iraq. We would have to allow them to fly in Iraq's air space to attack Iran. Thus we would be a part of that attack. Just more reasons for the rest of the world to hate us. I say we just close up shop and protect our borders.

 

 

{censored} YEAH.