Holocaust a "myth"? (long post)

[Emprov]

Wow.

 

Iran leader: Holocaust a 'myth'

link

 

Wednesday, December 14, 2005; Posted: 8:06 a.m. EST (13:06 GMT)

 

TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has described the Holocaust as "a myth" and suggested that Israel be moved to Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska.

 

Germany, the European Commission and Israel condemned the remark, with German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier calling it "shocking and unacceptable."

 

The Israeli government said Ahmadinejad's regime had "a distorted sense of reality."

 

Ahmadinejad sparked widespread international condemnation in October when he called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

 

Last week he also expressed doubt about the killing by the Nazis of six million Jews during World War II, but Wednesday was the first occasion when he said in public that the Holocaust was a myth.

 

"They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets," Ahmadinejad said in a speech to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan, according to a report on Wednesday from Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB).

 

"If somebody in their country questions God, nobody says anything, but if somebody denies the myth of the massacre of Jews, the Zionist loudspeakers and the governments in the pay of Zionism will start to scream," he said.

 

"Our proposal is this: Give a piece of your land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska so they (Jews) can create their own state," Ahmadinejad said, IRIB reported.

 

"Why, under the pretext of this massacre, have you come to the heart of Palestine and the Islamic world? Why have you created an artificial Zionist regime?"

 

Mark Regev, spokesman for Israel's Foreign Ministry, said: "The combination of a regime with a radical agenda, together with a distorted sense of reality that is clearly indicated by the statements we heard today, put together with nuclear weapons -- I think that's a dangerous combination that no one in the international community can accept."

 

"What the Iranian president has shown us today is that he is clearly outside the international consensus, he is clearly outside international norms and international legitimacy, and in so doing he has shown the Iranian government for what it is -- a rogue regime opposed to peace and stability and a threat to all its neighboring countries," Regev said.

 

In addition, Ahmadinejad spoke in Zahedan about Iran's nuclear program, maintaining it will insist on its right to develop nuclear energy for peaceful purposes.

 

"Those who themselves produce nuclear arms should not raise hue and cry against those who only want to gain access to nuclear technology for peaceful purposes," he said, according to a report from the Islamic Republic News Agency (IRNA).

 

"Countries which have arsenals of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons which can be used against other countries at their whim and those who supplied the Baathist regime with (chemical) weapons that killed thousands of innocent Iranians ... now go to all lengths to block Iran from gaining access to peaceful nuclear technology," he said.

 

"We are sure they have criminal intentions, and there was never any doubt that they were piling weapons of mass destruction to be used against less powerful nations," Ahmadinejad said, according to the IRNA report.

'Completely unacceptable'

 

In Berlin, Foreign Minister Steinmeier said his government had summoned the Iranian charge d'affaires to make "unmistakably clear" its displeasure, The Associated Press said.

 

"I cannot hide the fact that this weighs on bilateral relations and on the chances for the negotiation process, the so-called nuclear dossier," Steinmeier said, referring to European talks with Iran on its nuclear program. (Full story)

 

In Brussels, European Commission spokeswoman Emma Udwin said such "completely unacceptable" comments would do nothing to restore confidence in Iran.

 

"We feel very strongly that Iran is damaging its own interests with these kind of remarks," she added.

 

Ahmadinejad's views contrast with those of his moderate predecessor Mohammad Khatami, who urged a dialogue among civilizations.

 

Some conservative allies in Iran have criticized the current president's remarks, AP reported, because they fear he is damaging the country's image.

 

Moderates have urged the ruling Islamic establishment to rein in the president. But Supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei supports Ahmadinejad's calls for Israel's elimination, the news agency added.

 

Tehran-based political analyst Mahmoud Alinejad said the president could feel his speeches strengthen Iran diplomatically.

 

"There is a perception, based on past experience that only when Iran threatens and pushes does the West back off," he told Reuters.

[FreestyleIntruder]

 

Originally posted by Emprov In Berlin, Foreign Minister Steinmeier said his government had summoned the Iranian charge d'affaires to make "unmistakably clear" its displeasure, The Associated Press said.

 

 

as bad as tha eh?

[J.]

It's not the first time Ahmadinejad has said something like this and certainly won't be the last. I've read some fairly convincing arguments that the holocaust numbers have been inflated over the years, but never that it didn't happen at all.

[Rippin' Robin]

 

Originally posted by J. It's not the first time Ahmadinejad has said something like this and certainly won't be the last. I've read some fairly convincing arguments that the holocaust numbers have been inflated over the years, but never that it didn't happen at all.

 

 

Whether it's 2 million or 6 million doesn't change anything about the atrocity.

[Thumper]

It's incredible that anyone even tries to deny or downplay the Holocaust anymore...

[Emprov]

 

Originally posted by Thumper It's incredible that anyone even tries to deny or downplay the Holocaust anymore...

 

 

It's all about religeon and land. No more, no less.

[hawkhuff]

 

Originally posted by Emprov It's all about religeon and land. No more, no less.

It is one of many steps taken to re-write history. As Josef Goebbels once said, "tell the story often enough and long enough and people will believe it."

 

I hope and pray that the nation of Israel is watching as I believe they are.

 

We're going to be too busy surrendering.

[B-Bottom]

 

Originally posted by hawkhuff It is one of many steps taken to re-write history. As Josef Goebbels once said, "tell the story often enough and long enough and people will believe it." I hope and pray that the nation of Israel is watching as I believe they are. We're going to be too busy surrendering.

 

 

Israel gave Iran a March deadline to halt all nuclear activities or face an attack, and I say good for them.

[hawkhuff]

Originally posted by B-Bottom Israel gave Iran a March deadline to halt all nuclear activities or face an attack, and I say good for them.

Should be a Jan 1 deadline.

 

And it should be the complete destruction of all sites.

[jazzbassist]

 

Originally posted by B-Bottom Israel gave Iran a March deadline to halt all nuclear activities or face an attack, and I say good for them.

 

 

 

The Israelis have no problem sending their F-16s in and bombing the sheot out of any thing they think would contribute to nuclear activities.

 

Remember Iraq in the early 80s, the same thing was going on.

[B-Bottom]

 

Originally posted by jazzbassist The Israelis have no problem sending their F-16s in and bombing the sheot out of any thing they think would contribute to nuclear activities. Remember Iraq in the early 80s, the same thing was going on.

 

 

good for them.

[bville]

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a freaking nut. Hate to say it, but I see war in the future.

[FreestyleIntruder]

 

Originally posted by jazzbassist Remember Iraq in the early 80s, the same thing was going on.

 

 

ahhh...yes...the good old days

[Zamfir]

 

Originally posted by Rippin' Robin Whether it's 2 million or 6 million doesn't change anything about the atrocity.

 

 

I'd argue strongly that buying the Holocaust-minimization numbers (propagated by "deniers-lite") does alter important aspects of the atrocity.

 

1. An immense number of individuals are forgotten. You may not be able to record them all, but there's a moral duty to record as many as possible.

 

2. The lower numbers are often a deceptive rhetorical tactic to do at least two things: a) make the Nazi regime (and thus human capacity) look less bad, risking damage to our understanding of what they/we-as-a-species are capable of, and b) attack the credibility of historical accounts of the period, in order to secure a foothold for revising other understandings of what Nazi and other neo-fascist regimes did.

 

That may seem abstract, but there a large number of political forces/movements worldwide that will gain in public image/legitimacy from trying to draw down the numbers.

 

3. Also politically, and morally related: if you shrink the numbers of the dead considerably, you diminish the claims and histories of whole geographic areas, up to the level of countries. Suddenly their various tragedies are disputed / never happened. There's no more duty to pay attention to compartmentalized savagery in peripheral parts of the world.

 

That's a blow to financial reparations, but especially efforts to heal wounds, prevent conflict, and improve conditions for ethnic minorities, as well as a blow to the moral and intellectual consciousness and education of individuals. Also makes it easier for political leaders contemplating or carrying out genocide to escape responsibility for their acts, if they have help in slicing off parts of the evidence as Orwellian non-history disposal.

 

 

You could probably come up with more arguments to beware the sliding scale of Holocaust revisionism, but those are the ones that leap to mind.

[Zamfir]

 

Originally posted by bville Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a freaking nut. Hate to say it, but I see war in the future.

 

 

I don't know that much about Iranian politics, but Ahmadinejad is, AFAIK, seen as the formal officeholding mouthpiece of the clerical Guardian Council.

 

I.e., he's got a big megaphone because of the visibility of his position, and he's probably a senior figure in the regime with an important voice, but it's far from clear to me that he's the primary decision maker by any means. In other words, my gut sense is that there is a significant number of people behind the scenes in Iran with more decision-making power than Ahmadinejad.

[lug]

 

Originally posted by Zamfir I don't know that much about Iranian politics, but Ahmadinejad is, AFAIK, seen as the formal officeholding mouthpiece of the clerical Guardian Council. I.e., he's got a big megaphone because of the visibility of his position, and he's probably a senior figure in the regime with an important voice, but it's far from clear to me that he's the primary decision maker by any means. In other words, my gut sense is that there is a significant number of people behind the scenes in Iran with more decision-making power than Ahmadinejad.

 

 

Ayatollah Khamenei holds the most power in Iran.

[Zamfir]

Originally posted by lug Ayatollah Khamenei holds the most power in Iran.

 

OK, but how does the Guardian Council operate? As in, what are the limits to his authority?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...yer essay due at 5PM.

 

 

[Adrenochrome]

Couldn't answer that last question Zamfir...

The holocaust was appalling and when people try and deny it I feel sick.

BUT, Israel's behaviour towards Palestinians and others has been deplorable recently and BushBlair has/have done virtually nothing to condemn it.

Yes, the new Iranian leader is a bit of a fruitcake and is currently engaging in rabble-rousing and Israel is an obvious, local target.

None of these things causes or excuses any of the others though. But I guess none of us on this forum could imagine being in any of those situations and the reactions it might bring out in us. My comfortable existence is like a playground compared to many people lives around the world at the moment.

[lug]

Originally posted by Zamfir OK, but how does the Guardian Council operate? As in, what are the limits to his authority? ...yer essay due at 5PM.

 

He can call a ninja Jihad down on them and cut off all their heads just for being too loud in a meeting! He has ultimate ninja power!

[NeonVomit]

So the Holocaust never happend? Great, that means my grandfather's family hasn't actually been dead for the past 60 years. I'll go visit the relatives I never had then.

 

Of course, he's just trying to provoke people, and this nonsense destroys any potential support he might've had.

 

He's doing nothing more than shooting himself in the foot, and after Israel blow up their nuclear reactors and Iran are screaming their heads off to the UN, they'll be able to do nothing in response.

 

And because of {censored} like this, other countries will just tell them to shut up. We'll see a spike in suicide bombings in Israel and Iraq, but other than that nothing much.

[B-Bottom]

 

Originally posted by Adrenochrome Couldn't answer that last question Zamfir... The holocaust was appalling and when people try and deny it I feel sick. BUT, Israel's behaviour towards Palestinians and others has been deplorable recently and BushBlair has/have done virtually nothing to condemn it. .

 

How is Israel

[greenshag]

 

Originally posted by B-Bottom How is Israel

[Moody Johnny]

I guess I have missed the change of Iran's president. I liked the previous guy. You know, the one with glasses and black turban.

[Adrenochrome]

Well I think their land-grabbing tactics and the general way they treat the Palestinians is deplorable. I don't like the way they've shot/bombed foreign aid workers in camps that aren't even in Israel. That's my opinion, it doesn't mean I agree with the Palestinian tactics either, but they generally seem to be the oppressed party.

[B-Bottom]

 

Originally posted by Adrenochrome Well I think their land-grabbing tactics and the general way they treat the Palestinians is deplorable. I don't like the way they've shot/bombed foreign aid workers in camps that aren't even in Israel. That's my opinion, it doesn't mean I agree with the Palestinian tactics either, but they generally seem to be the oppressed party.

 

 

Land grabbing tactics? you do realive that they are in the midst of turning over a lot of the jewish settlements right? And I'm sure the Palestinians will do something very useful with that land that is given back to them:rolleyes:

Do you really believe that they specificaly targeted aid workers for death? I know their was a story some time ago about an American who was on the Palestinians side, she was standing in front of a bull dozer protesting. Guess what happend here's the equation

Girl vs Bulldozer = flat girl. And i say good.....screw her for sticking up for suicide bombers and terrorists.

So because the palestinians live in ghettos that's Israels fault and thier for are oppressed? Come on man. A large number of Palestinians actually work in Israel, and whenever their is a suicide bombing the borders are shut down. So they are actually hurting themselves financialy as well by allowing such things to go on.