Members Conformer Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 I live in a neighborhood where lots of people are heavily armed. Shotguns, rifles (including semi-automatic assault rifles), and pistols. Most of us boys around here knew how too handle shotguns, rifles and pistols before we were 10. I got my first rifle when I was 9 years old. Now that being said and the fact that my nieghborhood is very armed. I can only think of a couple of nieghbors who aren't armed and I live in a 47 home housing development. On the outskirts of a city with a metro area of 300,000 whose crime rate is 1 3/4 times the national average. Yet, no accidental shootings, rapes, robberies, murders, assaults, domestic disputes, property damage, and nobody threatens anyone. At least its been like that the 22 years I have lived here. Everyone is super NICE and they get along. Why is that? Everyone is armed and according too liberals my community should be a war zone yet people safely walk thier dogs down the road at midnight, kids play out in the streets with no fear, women lay out in the sun in thongs..and noone gets harassed. Why?!? An armed society is a polite society. Most of the crime in America stems from the poorer less educated, irresponsible, who have poor values from social up bringing and no parental supervision. So when some of us talk about wanting a gun for self defense, please don't assume we are one of these immature wannabe gangster kids trying to be cool. Thats were most of your gun violence comes from. I would go into further detail, but last time I did here at Harmony Central they locked and deleted the thread. Yet, I think most Americans here know what Europeons,and Canadians don't. You know..and where (according to the FBI) 65% of violent crime in America comes from. ATF gun trace reports are another factual clue. Yet, over 90 million Americans own guns. Compare our murder rate to the percentage of gun owners, and you will see its only high in well...certain areas most folks don't venture anyway.
Members seraphim7s Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 I think even if y'all *didn't* own guns, there wouldn't be much crime in your area. It's not necessarily the case that everyone is afraid of everyone else's gun totin' skills so they won't attempt to rape, burgle or maim them. They may just be *decent, law-abiding people*, with a strong moral framework who have no interest in such activities. Such a low estimation of humanity! People don't choose not to commit crimes simply out of a fear of retribution!
Members burdizzos Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 Originally posted by seraphim7s I think even if y'all *didn't* own guns, there wouldn't be much crime in your area.It's not necessarily the case that everyone is afraid of everyone else's gun totin' skills so they won't attempt to rape, burgle or maim them.They may just be *decent, law-abiding people*, with a strong moral framework who have no interest in such activities.Such a low estimation of humanity! People don't choose not to commit crimes simply out of a fear of retribution! Every point, true. The problem isn't with the guns.
Members Conformer Posted January 15, 2006 Author Members Posted January 15, 2006 Originally posted by burdizzos Every point, true.The problem isn't with the guns. Thats the point I was trying to make. Guns aren't the problem, people are.
Members seraphim7s Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 No, no, no - you've misunderstood me. You made the point: " An armed society is a polite society" I made the point that your community is not polite *because it has guns*, but for other reasons. By your reckoning, the poor, urbanised black and hispanic areas of America must not be part of your society, since they are presumably not 'polite' (in your sense of the word).
Members Rippin' Robin Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 It's when guns start replacing politeness the p00p hits the fan.
Members Moody Johnny Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 Like already others said, I don't think it's an issue of guns, but rather how trigger happy people are. Your neighbourhood sounds like a culture where people know each other, agree that it's good to have rules that apply to more than just an individual, don't feel like they have something to show off, are not paranoid, trust the ability of police to protect the public, and generally own guns only as a very distant and unlikely backup plan without being "badassed" about it. In other words it doesn't sound like an anarchistic culture where gunfights are glorified, and individuals feel they have to protect from an unknown threat constantly. One factor could be alcohol usage culture. That affects significantly on people's ability to use their brains and how impulsively they behave. All I know, is that IF there was concealed firearm permit in my country and my hometown, people would get killed every weekend and whole community would live in paranoid fear. Because all these stupid lowlife wannabe ganstas (yes, we have those...) in their drunken testosterone high would shoot everything that moves for fun. Now that no one has guns they are merely looking for hand-to-hand fights, thinking that beating up random people makes them more manly. These same scumbags are "law-abiding-citizens" during the week when they're sober. I don't think I or many of my friends (being metallers) would be even alive as we speak, if every idiot was carrying a gun here. One more thing... I personally believe that if anywhere in our so-called civilized world there are areas that you simply cannot go to without fearing for your life, you really need to get strongly organized to send death patrols there and clean up the places from the human scum. Being proud of living in a "bad neighbourhood" and trusting no one to protect your safety is not manly or glorious, it's simply anarchy!
Members bottomfeeder Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 Originally posted by seraphim7s By your reckoning, the poor, urbanised black and hispanic areas of America must not be part of your society, since they are presumably not 'polite' (in your sense of the word). What about all of the poor urbanized white areas?
Members Oddsock Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 Originally posted by seraphim7s No, no, no - you've misunderstood me.You made the point: " An armed society is a polite society"I made the point that your community is not polite *because it has guns*, but for other reasons.By your reckoning, the poor, urbanised black and hispanic areas of America must not be part of your society, since they are presumably not 'polite' (in your sense of the word). right, those bad areas are armed, but impolite. so armed == polite is false. in order for guns to deter crime, the criminals would have to know that you have them. it seems unlikely to me that they would ALL know, or ALL be deterred. if it's just guns keeping them out, then there should be a few still trying. most likely your neighborhood is a bad target for some other reasons. however, just not necessarily being a deterent doesn't make your guns less of a defense.
Members mrcrow Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 forearmed is forewarned... sorry but it does make some sense my old corps
Members beam Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 Yea I would tend to agree that a well armed area where there isn't much crime would still have a low crime rate if everyone wasn't armed. It's the choices people make about what they do with their weapons, not whether or not they have them. I'm not sure MAD works on the individual level. People don't play nice on the individual level because they are afraid that everyone out there has an equal potential to hurt them.
Members seraphim7s Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 Originally posted by mrcrow forearmed is forewarned... sorry but it does make some sense my old corps Well, it makes sense *in the armed forces*, yeh! Doesn't the Manchester area have enough guns, Mr. Crow?
Members ezstep Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 My son grew up hunting with me. He fired several types of rifles and shotguns until I felt comfortable enough to allow him to hunt close by me. He knows the power of a gun. My daughters have fired several types as well, though they chose not to hunt. On the other hand, millions of kids play videogames of every sort and there is a fair amount of fire power involved with those games. Kids play them until their minds grow numb. Most have never fired a real weapon, only the plastic one with the wire connected to the videogame. Often when they "kill" something, it simply disappears from the game. I would say that my three kids would be much less likely to use a gun irresponsibly. When someone knows the "real" power and "real" damage a gun can do, they are more likely to not do something stupid with one. Unfortunately, most of the gun control laws are written by people who choose not to handle them and choose to prevent (as much as possible) others people from handling them. I have not met a person who knows about guns misuse one (though I am sure that they sometimes do) but I have read hundreds, maybe thousands of accounts where someone who does not know about guns gets one and does something stupid. Maybe knowledge is power, afterall.
Members mrcrow Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 Originally posted by seraphim7s Well, it makes sense *in the armed forces*, yeh! Doesn't the Manchester area have enough guns, Mr. Crow? you bet..its just as bad here but its illegal i met an ex gun runner recently...he is not all that bad..stopped pushing drugs as well had some shotguns once..
Members lingua latina Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 Hunting rifles are cool. I enjoy bagging a 10 pointer as much as any man. People who have handguns for protection- neighboorhoods armed to the teeth!?- c'mon, you really feel comfortable? I wonder what percentage of "crimes of passion" occur with these same people who own handguns for protection. Instead of fulfilling their fantasy of blowing away an intruder, they smoke their husband/wife in a fit of outrage. Nice...
Members fretless Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 in the land of "Drive-bys" I wish they would have some "books for guns" or "puppies for Glocks" program or something.
Members burdizzos Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 Originally posted by lingua latina I wonder what percentage of "crimes of passion" occur with these same people who own handguns for protection. Instead of fulfilling their fantasy of blowing away an intruder, they smoke their husband/wife in a fit of outrage. Nice... Yeah, I wonder too. That's just the kind of BS speculation that fuels the anti-gun movement. In the absence of facts to support the argument, inflammatory conjecture works beautifully.
Members mrcrow Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 i suppose your legislation for shooting someone should be some sort of deterrent to the 'average' gun holder... a divorce is a bit easier on the nerves than a prison sentence with big and bad ugly guys..
Members syciprider Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 Originally posted by Moody Johnny All I know, is that IF there was concealed firearm permit in my country and my hometown, people would get killed every weekend and whole community would live in paranoid fear. Because all these stupid lowlife wannabe ganstas (yes, we have those...) in their drunken testosterone high would shoot everything that moves for fun. It will all depend on the implementation. Well over half the states in the US have reformed concealed carry laws. That is, aside from a screening process, the cops have to prove that you don't need to carry instead of you having to prove to the cops that you need to. Florida has had concealed carry laws for about 10 yrs now (IIRC). I have heard of two incidents of CCW holders having to draw their weapon and fire. Two out of thousands. In Texas they had two (one stopped a yahoo from shooting up a bunch of folks).In Israel, they have MANY documented cases of suicide bombers getting shot to death by CITIZENS before the zealots can detonate their cargo. The news will never celebrate these heroes. Nobody law abiding lives fearing for their lives. At least not here in the US. People who buy guns for self defense are no more paranoid than those who buy fire extinguishers for the kitchen. I also see a side benefit to this. If I ever get seized as a prisoner by a bunch of Koran thumping radicals, I want to be familiar with their weapons in case I am able to grab one. I don't want to be shot dead because I was trying to figure out how to work an AK.
Members misterhinkydink Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 Originally posted by Conformer Thats the point I was trying to make. Guns aren't the problem, people are. You're exactly right (see my sig). In other words, guns aren't the problem; people having access to guns is the problem.
Members FreestyleIntruder Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 Originally posted by Conformer women lay out in the sun in thongs..and noone gets harassed. Why?!? because i haven't been there yet! are we talking hot women here?
Members Para Bellum Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 Originally posted by Oddsock right, those bad areas are armed, but impolite. so armed == polite is false. You are polite to those you believe have a chance to be armed. Would a driver going through a bout of road rage be as aggressive if he knew the driver he was abusing had a firearm in the car and loaded? Or would a driver with a loaded firearm be more likely to road rage against another driver? There will always be armed people imposing their will on people (and not all of them have badges), but simply having a gun doesn't mean you can demand respect. Is a convenience store more likely to experience shrinkage when they have video cameras and multiple employees on the floor? Or when there are no cameras and a lone employee doing stock in the back room? The movie clerks touched on the topic when selling newspapers with the honor system. Change it over to open and concealed carry. Just the threat of a potential concealed carry or an armed household is enough to act as a deterent to unpolite behaviors such as stealing your hubcaps or mugging you. And, well, many people are driven by selfishness. People will cheat, steal, and lie in order to benefit themselves. If people were full of virtue, there would be no need for governments and police and armies and firearms. When people become perfect, they won't feel a need to have a weapon anymore. But taking weapons away from people won't make them any more perfect.
Members bbl Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 Originally posted by burdizzos Yeah, I wonder too. That's just the kind of BS speculation that fuels the anti-gun movement.In the absence of facts to support the argument, inflammatory conjecture works beautifully. I'd say it's speculation, but not BS speculation. Question: If Brynn Hartman didn't have quick and easy access to a gun during her little "episode", would Phil Hartman still be alive? Who knows, but I think it's a valid question. And I'd say yes, he'd probably still be alive. However, you could ask the same about cocaine, alcohol, Zoloft, etc. Of course it comes down to people and their actions. But introducing a gun to some potentially dangerous environments makes those environments even more dangerous.
Members burdizzos Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 Here's some information on the use of guns as a means of self defense. In the US, about 30,000 people die every year as a result of a gun shot wound. Roughly 16,000 of those are self inflicted. So that leaves 14,000 gun related deaths every year that are from one person shooting another person. Even if you take the lowest estimate of 108,000 violent crimes stopped with the use of guns, then it is worth the trade off.
Members beam Posted January 15, 2006 Members Posted January 15, 2006 Ahh yes, the gun debate.Always a hot topic with people for some reason
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