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This deserved its own thread!!!!!


Funkee1

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I'm with you on significant...


But you just compared coaching a football game to the systematic genocide of 13 million people...Get a grip...

 

 

So, if someone said "Why can't you jews get over it?" That would be ok? THAT is the source of my comparison. It's the same insensitivity, and it's wrong.

 

Do I Equate the Super Bowl to the Holocaust? No. However, the same people who forget that Blacks were denied head coaching positions in the NFL based on race for many years, and now say "Why does that matter?" Might be the same people who say the Holocaust doesn't matter.

 

See, the point is this: Racial insensitivity is one step away from racial bigotry, and it should not be tolerated by anyone.

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What the {censored}? Are you out of your mind?


Denying that this is an historic event would be on par with saying that Rosa Parks did little more than sit on a {censored}ing bus. To draw a holocaust comparison is beyond stupid.


Sure, it's an important event for black people, but it would be an even bigger event if no one played it up and simply moved past it as if they just expect black people to be every bit as good as white people, because they are. Making a huge issue of it makes people of color seem like they are still trying to prove something which puts them in the weaker position. To see this event for what it is rather than make a big deal out of it would be worth far more than what will actually happen.


 

 

Sure, so all the doubters can say "Oh.... well HE's the exception"? No, THAT would be stupid, and reand my last post and maybe you'll see why I say the Holocaust analogy is spot on.

 

My motto is forgive, but never forget.

 

There are still laws on the books in this country equating Black people to livestock. And, as KK so Eloquently put it, if you were in the position of being told you couldn't do something solely on the basis of race, you might feel differently about it.

 

My Father was the president of the Technicians union at the FAA During the middle 70's. He had no desire to be an air traffic controller, but personally knew several qualified Blacks who were denied that job, and was called to testify twice in hearings about it.

 

Now, had no one ever said "Blacks can't be head coaches", it would be a non- issue, and the fact that you don't get that makes me wonder what country you rally live in?

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My Father was the president of the Technicians union at the FAA During the middle 70's. He had no desire to be an air traffic controller, but personally knew several qualified Blacks who were denied that job, and was called to testify twice in hearings about it.

 

 

This goes both ways Mark, and is the same issue whether you see it this way or not.

 

My father was a pilot for United Airlines, and was there when United was pushing the first black woman into a captain position. This woman had failed to pass her initial training like 5 times before they 'passed' her anyway. Now, there were probably, and literaly 1000's of WAY more experienced and qualified pilots with applications in, and in every case if those guys failed one time they were terminated. They were all rejected in favor of this woman, soley because she was a black woman. So they put an underskilled and underqualified pilot out with our lives in her hands, over so many more qualified applicants. Now, the underriding motivations may be different, but the result is the exact same. That being that I, or any of those other applicants, was rejected based on race. How do you think that makes me feel? Probably the same as you.

 

Burdizzo's post has this issue nailed. There needs to be an end to the celebration of non events if everyone values themselves as equals. The fact that there is a black history month only prolongs this stupid issue. We don't even have an American History month for Christ's sake. Equality means exactly that, and until everyone, including the black and white communities view themselves that way nothing will change.

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Actually, I didn't. I compared insenstitivty of one to the other, not the events themselves.

 

 

You said denying the historical import of this was "on par" with denying the holocaust...

 

Saying "it's not historically significant that two black men are coaching in a football game" is not tantamount to saying "it's not historically significant that 13 million people were exterminated by the Nazis"...

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Equality means exactly that, and until everyone, including the black and white communities view themselves that way nothing will change.

 

 

Your point about Affirmative action is well taken. The idea behind it was to prevent qualified candidates from being discriminated against, not to promote unqualified candidates based on race. It has been misused and abused over the years, and it started as a band- aid on a sucking wound to begin with.

 

However, I can live with a few unqualifieds promoted on race till the system gets it right.

 

As for the "Black History Month" debate, it is another of the same band- aids. For years, public schools denied that Black History, Latino history etc were significant. Now that these things are embraced, white folks are up in arms saying it's reverse racism.

 

If ya hadn't tried to teach us we were equal to livestock, we wouldn't have anything to prove. You can't un- ring the bell.

 

I would be thrilled if there was a "History" month with no particular race attached to it, but it's still not gonna take away the sting I felt in middle school when I went to write a paper on Frederick Douglas, and was told I should pick someone more important.

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Since you brought that up, 80 percent of the Coaches should be black too, but they aren't.

 

 

No male coaches in women's sports then?

 

Should coach representation be based off of the breakdown within the players or the breakdown of the population at large (and just as a note, it's not 80% in the NFL)...

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Sure, so all the doubters can say "Oh.... well HE's the exception"? No, THAT would be stupid, and reand my last post and maybe you'll see why I say the Holocaust analogy is spot on.


My motto is forgive, but never forget.


There are still laws on the books in this country equating Black people to livestock. And, as KK so Eloquently put it, if you were in the position of being told you couldn't do something solely on the basis of race, you might feel differently about it.


My Father was the president of the Technicians union at the FAA During the middle 70's. He had no desire to be an air traffic controller, but personally knew several qualified Blacks who were denied that job, and was called to testify twice in hearings about it.


Now, had no one ever said "Blacks can't be head coaches", it would be a non- issue, and the fact that you don't get that makes me wonder what country you rally live in?

 

 

I'm not denying that there are racist buffoons that will make stupid comments about whether or not a person is qualified to coach a sports team because of their race. Nor am I stating that it's impossible that racist motives prevented qualified individual from gaining coaching positions in the NFL. I am trivializing the accomplishment because it isn't that big of a deal and it sure as {censored} doesn't measure up to the denial of the Holocaust.

 

How many jobs have you been denied because of your skin color? How many opportunities have you lost because of your race? I, along with a few other white guys, was passed over for an excellent promotion and opportunity when I was in the navy. They guy who got it had lower test scores and lower performance evaluations than all of us. He got the job because he was black. He knew it and rubbed it in our faces. He claimed that he was owed that because of all the racism that "his people" had endured. I was also passed over for a couple of officer programs while people of color were given special consideration.

 

{censored} happens. Did I get mad about it and blame all of my life's troubles on the racist institution that promoted based on race rather than merit? {censored} no, I kept going and did what I needed to do to get where I wanted to be. Never once did I hold anyone else responsible for my failures or blame the specter of oppression for my missed opportunities. That's bull{censored} and you'd be well served to stop being a victim and grab a fistful of responsibility.

 

I'm not trying to insult you or pick on you, but you always have excuses and there is always someone preventing you from getting ahead. I'd bet T-broom's HCBF moderator paycheck that the person who holds you back the most is you.

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No male coaches in women's sports then?


Should coach representation be based off of the breakdown within the players or the breakdown of the population at large (and just as a note, it's not 80% in the NFL)...



No.............but you see what I mean. If the ethnic breakdown had anything to do with it, the number of black coaches wouls be 80%.:D

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I'm not denying that there are racist buffoons that will make stupid comments about whether or not a person is qualified to coach a sports team because of their race. Nor am I stating that it's impossible that racist motives prevented qualified individual from gaining coaching positions in the NFL. I am trivializing the accomplishment because it isn't that big of a deal and it sure as {censored} doesn't measure up to the denial of the Holocaust.


How many jobs have you been denied because of your skin color? How many opportunities have you lost because of your race? I, along with a few other white guys, was passed over for an excellent promotion and opportunity when I was in the navy. They guy who got it had lower test scores and lower performance evaluations than all of us. He got the job because he was black. He knew it and rubbed it in our faces. He claimed that he was owed that because of all the racism that "his people" had endured. I was also passed over for a couple of officer programs while people of color were given special consideration.


{censored} happens. Did I get mad about it and blame all of my life's troubles on the racist institution that promoted based on race rather than merit? {censored} no, I kept going and did what I needed to do to get where I wanted to be. Never once did I hold anyone else responsible for my failures or blame the specter of oppression for my missed opportunities. That's bull{censored} and you'd be well served to stop being a victim and grab a fistful of responsibility.


I'm not trying to insult you or pick on you, but you always have excuses and there is always someone preventing you from getting ahead. I'd bet T-broom's HCBF moderator paycheck that the person who holds you back the most is you.

 

 

 

 

That's easy when there is no racist institution holding you back.

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However, I can live with a few unqualifieds promoted on race till the system gets it right.



If ya hadn't tried to teach us we were equal to livestock, we wouldn't have anything to prove. You can't un- ring the bell.


 

 

 

If you agree with 'unqualifieds promoted on race', then in no case will the system ever 'get it right'. You know this. What's not right for you, is not right for anyone, is it? All or nothing, there is no in between here. Either you want equality, and everything it brings with it, or you don't. From this sentence of yours it sure sounds like you don't want true equality.

 

As for the livestock sentence come on. Who has ever personally told you that, with any sense of legitimacy what so ever? You have nothing to prove, nor does anyone else in THIS day and age. The past, maybe not, but fortunately we don't live there (or at least some of us don't live there.) You have to live in today, and today two black coaches are playing for the superbowl and nothing had prevented them from earning their way there. Nothing! So don't pull this 'something to prove' arguement, because it is not based on reality. If you want to be the next Marcus, guess what, if you have the skills you can be. Who's keeping you down? No one. You're right that you can't unring the bell, but you also can't live in denile of the times, and the way things are today. No one is holding anyone down, but not everyone has the ability to raise themselves up either. Everyone needs to drop the excuses, quit living in the past they only read about, and live in THIS day and age. Go as far as their efforts can take them, and quit blaming 'the system' for failures.

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If you agree with 'unqualifieds promoted on race', then in no case will the system ever 'get it right'. You know this. What's not right for you, is not right for anyone, is it? All or nothing, there is no in between here. Either you want equality, and everything it brings with it, or you don't. From this sentence of yours it sure sounds like you don't want true equality.


As for the livestock sentence come on. Who has ever personally told you that, with any sense of legitimacy what so ever? You have nothing to prove, nor does anyone else in THIS day and age. The past, maybe not, but fortunately we don't live there (or at least some of us don't live there.) You have to live in today, and today two black coaches are playing for the superbowl and nothing had prevented them from earning their way there. Nothing! So don't pull this 'something to prove' arguement, because it is not based on reality. If you want to be the next Marcus, guess what, if you have the skills you can be. Who's keeping you down? No one. You're right that you can't unring the bell, but you also can't live in denile of the times, and the way things are today. No one is holding anyone down, but not everyone has the ability to raise themselves up either. Everyone needs to drop the excuses, quit living in the past they only read about, and live in THIS day and age. Go as far as their efforts can take them, and quit blaming 'the system' for failures.

 

 

 

 

When Did I say ANY of that?

 

The Past is just as responsible for my successes. I have Personally been told that I am equated to livestock, when I read it the U>S Constitution that a Black man represents 1/3 of a person (I am paraphrasing, hence the absence of quotation marks), and I have never told ANYONE My own failures have anything to do with a racist society, or "the man holding me down".

 

However, if you don't think that hearing that crap didn't motivate me to be the nest bassist I could be, or motivated Tony Dungy and Lovie Smith to become great coaches, then you're an idiot. We aren't living in the past, nor blaming "the man" for our failures. We are celebrating success in spite of "the man".

 

And, again, I say if white folks had never said any of this stuff, it wouldn't be an issue.

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We aren't living in the past, nor blaming "the man" for our failures. We are celebrating success in spite of "the man".





This is just it. 'In spite of the man'? That IS living in the past. 'The Man' is not holding you down, and if that is your main source of motivation, then you will never be free from this issue because you are going to see it in EVERYTHING! The Man doesn't exist, but if you refuse to acknowledge that, or choose to continue to celebrate sucess in spite of The Man, then it's over. No one wins. Celebrate success for simple achievment, nothing more. There is nothing more significant to Lovie reaching the superbowl than there was for Ditka. Nothing. They are EQUAL achievments and nothing more. It was no harder for Lovie than it was for Iron Mike. Ok, maybe since Da Coach had only the greatest football team ever to take the field it was a little easier for him.;) Out side of that though, you can't live you life always working to 'prove' something to 'the Man'. Prove it to yourself, that;s the only opinion that matters anyway. And leave out all the other 'celebrations' that only keep the division going.

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That's easy when there is no racist institution holding you back.

 

 

Yes Virginia, there is a oppressive force so powerful that a person who happens to be black can never, ever succeed no matter how hard they try. Some use is as a crutch, some use it as a motivator and some just ignore it an do as they will.

 

What do you have in common with Tony Dungy? You both have two daughters. That is where the similarity ends. You are holding these men up and heroes and singling them out for the one thing that you do not want to be a primary issue. Somehow Mr. Dungy got past that awful system, got his degree and worked his way up through the coaching ranks just as many other coaches before him have done. He probably dealt with a lot of {censored} on the way up, but I'd bet that he never once sat home crying because he lost out on something. The same is true for Mr. Smith. They are both great men who have worked hard for everything that they have achieved. Instead of seeing their success as an example of what can be done with the right mind set, you view it as an "in your face" assault on those whose opinions don't really matter anyway. Rather than viewing them as successful African Americans who overcame adversity to reach the pinnacle of modern sports, why not just view them as the should be viewed? Just as men who earned everything they have the old fashioned way. Both of their stories are inspirational, but not because of their skin color. Drawing the distinction only serves to perpetuate the racial divide.

 

On one hand, you don't want there to be racism and you do not want people to be judged based on the color of their skin, but on the other you want a celebration every time a black person does something that a black person has never done before.

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Yes Virginia, there is a oppressive force so powerful that a person who happens to be black can never, ever succeed no matter how hard they try. Some use is as a crutch, some use it as a motivator and some just ignore it an do as they will.


What do you have in common with Tony Dungy? You both have two daughters. That is where the similarity ends. You are holding these men up and heroes and singling them out for the one thing that you do not want to be a primary issue. Somehow Mr. Dungy got past that awful system, got his degree and worked his way up through the coaching ranks just as many other coaches before him have done. He probably dealt with a lot of {censored} on the way up, but I'd bet that he never once sat home crying because he lost out on something. The same is true for Mr. Smith. They are both great men who have worked hard for everything that they have achieved. Instead of seeing their success as an example of what can be done with the right mind set, you view it as an "in your face" assault on those whose opinions don't really matter anyway. Rather than viewing them as successful African Americans who overcame adversity to reach the pinnacle of modern sports, why not just view them as the should be viewed? Just as men who earned everything they have the old fashioned way. Both of their stories are inspirational, but not because of their skin color. Drawing the distinction only serves to perpetuate the racial divide.


On one hand, you don't want there to be racism and you do not want people to be judged based on the color of their skin, but on the other you want a celebration every time a black person does something that a black person has never done before.

 

 

Again, when did I say any of that?

 

Please argue on the merits of things I actually said, not ridiculous assumptions.

 

And, again, I say it is still worth celebrating. Besides, were there no racism, who's to say a black coach wouldn't have gotten to the Super bowl a long time ago?

 

Art Shell was the first black coach in the NFL, but he wasn't the first black qualified to coach, and ignorig that like it didn't happen is jusat stupid.

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Again, when did I say any of that?


Please argue on the merits of things I actually said, not ridiculous assumptions.


And, again, I say it is still worth celebrating. Besides, were there no racism, who's to say a black coach wouldn't have gotten to the Super bowl a long time ago?


Art Shell was the first black coach in the NFL, but he wasn't the first black
qualified
to coach, and ignorig that like it didn't happen is jusat stupid.

 

 

+1

 

This is notable. Those who say that we should ignore history must somehow believe that the playing field is now level. It is not. There's no clean slate. Never will be. And it's not because minorities are still celebrating the accomplishments of their own.

 

Now, who's going to be the first reporter to ask, "How long have you been a black head coach?":D

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+1


This is notable. Those who say that we should ignore history must somehow believe that the playing field is now level. It is not. There's no clean slate. Never will be. And it's not because minorities are still celebrating the accomplishments of their own.


Now, who's going to be the first reporter to ask, "How long have you been a black head coach?":D



Does that mean whites can also celebrate Hale Barry winning an Oscar for best actress and Thai can celebrate Tiger Woods being a great golfer? ;)

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