Bonds hits 756

[ThudMaker]

Staying healthy and relevant to the game was his accomplishment. The numbers were his ego.

But you still have to have management that is willing to feed that ego. As a Chicagoan, you should be able to recognize the difference in size between Sammy Sosa's ego and Ripken's.

[Kindness]

But you still have to have management that is willing to feed that ego. As a Chicagoan, you should be able to recognize the difference in size between Sammy Sosa's ego and Ripken's.

 

If I have to choose between the two, I'd take Ripken every day of every week from here until the day he dies. I'd play him "King and His Court" style where it's just Ripken and three others against a full squad. Sammy Sosa is/was everything that was wrong with that organization and its fans.

[ThudMaker]

If I have to choose between the two, I'd take Ripken every day of every week from here until the day he dies. I'd play him "King and His Court" style where it's just Ripken and three others against a full squad. Sammy Sosa is/was everything that was wrong with that organization and its fans.

I just couldn't believe how much they stroked Sosa's ego. They let it fester and the ego got supersized in the McDonald's drive-thru. If I was in that same locker room as him, I'd have broken the stupid boom box a long time ago. He sold seats. That's something we miss when talking about Ripken's streak or Sosa/McGuire. The butts in the seats bring in the dough and sometimes an organization will sell it's soul for a packed house and a nice TV broadcast.

[Kindness]

sometimes

 

 

Always.

[ThudMaker]

Always.

Kansas City could sell it's soul and people still wouldn't know they had a team there.

[Kindness]

Kansas what?

[ivanthetrble]

CNN poll results on Bond's breaking the HR record. Sorry Barry, no love to be found here.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/33070.html

 

and no better on ESPN

 

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?event_id=3038&action=1&question22602=91358&question22603=91360&question22604=91362&question22605=91365&question22606=91369&question22607=91372&question22608=91376&question22609=91385

[King Kashue]

 

In no place does he ever say, "I knowingly took steroids.". I think that it's possible that you and I are trying to split different hairs.

 

 

Read my very first post. Look at what I said.

 

"Bonds testified under oath that he took the cream and the clear (the only thing in question is whether he knew what they were or not)."

 

I'm not splitting hairs, that's been my claim for the entire thread.

 

 

Now, the question of whether he knew what they were or not, that's up to individual determination of whether you want to believe him.

 

Personally, I think it's laughable that a world-class athlete would take anything without knowing what it is. That it's laughable that he thought a substance applied by drops under his tongue with a medical dispenser was "flaxseed oil". That's it's not reasonable to think that his long time friend and trainer gave him dangerous and illegal drugs without ever telling him what they were, and that given that tremendous betrayal, both Bonds and his trainer would not testify.

 

And the icing on the cake, when Bonds tested positive for amphetamines (in violation of MLB rules, so it was cheating), he blamed it on a teammate, claiming he thought they were a vitamin supplement that he took from the other guy's locker. A claim he was forced to abandon when the teammate refused to allow him to claim that and denied Bonds got it from him.

[King Kashue]

Basically, I watched the guy never take a day off BECAUSE of the streak. When he needed a rest he'd play 5 innings and then sit on the bench just to keep the streak alive. It wasn't long after he broke the record that he decided to take a day off. Coincidence? He was choosing his actions based on the numbers and the streak. It feels artificial to me. He broke the record, not because it happened in the natural course of his career, but because he forced himself (and his managers) to. By all accounts he is a humble guy. By all accounts he is one of the best players at his position in his era. By all accounts he is much more of an inspiration than Barry Bonds. I simply take exception to the idea of consciously making decisions based on the streak.

 

Kindness, Lou Gehrig played a number of games at Shortstop for the Yankees...

 

Shortstop you say? Why would they start a first baseman at Short?

 

Because Lou played the top of the inning, got an at bat (and thus credit for playing the game) and then was removed from the lineup.

 

If Gehrig and McCarthy did stuff like that to keep his streak alive, how can you possibly begrudge Ripken similar considerations in breaking the record? Both resorted to similar tactics in order to maintain the same record. Seems like an even playing field to me.

[King Kashue]

 

Thank you!!! That's what I been sayin!!!!!!!

 

 

And as has already been pointed out, in the case of Bonds, it's not about "allowing someone to hit the ball" or substituting for talent...This argument is put forth by people who don't understand the criticisms leveled (sorry to be blunt).

 

It's about sustaining a level of performance at a time when most players decline. It's about preventing the slowing of the muscles, the weakening of power, the natural decay of the body. And when you're discussing a record like home runs in a career, it's of paramount significance.

[boogiebassbill]

Bonds is not a team player

[Kindness]

Kindness, Lou Gehrig played a number of games at Shortstop for the Yankees... Shortstop you say? Why would they start a first baseman at Short? Because Lou played the top of the inning, got an at bat (and thus credit for playing the game) and then was removed from the lineup. If Gehrig and McCarthy did stuff like that to keep his streak alive, how can you possibly begrudge Ripken similar considerations in breaking the record? Both resorted to similar tactics in order to maintain the same record. Seems like an even playing field to me.

 

An even playing field is right. I don't think either record is anything to celebrate. I don't get it. Not for a minute. It makes no sense to me at all. Not for lack of explanation or thought, it just always rings hollow for me.

[Emprov]

 

Read my very first post. Look at what I said. "Bonds testified under oath that he took the cream and the clear (the only thing in question is whether he knew what they were or not)."

 

 

The word that you're leaving out in your first post is "knowingly"

 

"He has admitted [to knowingly] using steroids and was caught using amphetamines. Neither of those are disputed."

 

It reads completely differently than "he's admitted to using steroids". Whether or not he actually knew is beside the point, it's all about what he communicated. Just saying that he's admitted to using steroids is kind of like saying that, if A=B, then A=C without saying that B=C.

 

 

Personally, I think it's laughable that a world-class athlete would take anything without knowing what it is. That it's laughable that he thought a substance applied by drops under his tongue with a medical dispenser was "flaxseed oil". That's it's not reasonable to think that his long time friend and trainer gave him dangerous and illegal drugs without ever telling him what they were, and that given that tremendous betrayal, both Bonds and his trainer would not testify.

 

 

I know a few professional athletes and every single one of them knows exactly what goes into their body -- the stakes are way too high for them not to know. That being said, I can understand a situation where a long time friend and personal trainer gives you something that's a bit more complex than you had anticipated. I tend to think that it's somewhere in the middle. I'm guessing that he had an agreement that he'd not be told specifically what he was taking but, as long as it helped his career along, it was ok with him, the "ignorance is bliss" route.

 

 

And the icing on the cake, when Bonds tested positive for amphetamines (in violation of MLB rules, so it was cheating), he blamed it on a teammate, claiming he thought they were a vitamin supplement that he took from the other guy's locker. A claim he was forced to abandon when the teammate refused to allow him to claim that and denied Bonds got it from him.

 

And ya, the whole Mark Sweeny thing was pretty cheesy, pretty bad form IMO.

[bbl]

 

CNN poll results on Bond's breaking the HR record. Sorry Barry, no love to be found here. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/33070.html and no better on ESPN http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?event_id=3038&action=1&question22602=91358&question22603=91360&question22604=91362&question22605=91365&question22606=91369&question22607=91372&question22608=91376&question22609=91385

 

 

Those polls show plenty of love for Barry. Maybe not the from the majority, but plenty.

[bbl]

 

An even playing field is right. I don't think either record is anything to celebrate. I don't get it. Not for a minute. It makes no sense to me at all. Not for lack of explanation or thought, it just always rings hollow for me.

 

 

I agree. I think consecutive games is generally misunderstood and overhyped. While it may be an indicator of the value a player contributes to his team, it may be an indicator of a manager who occasionally makes decisions based on personal statistics (i.e., not always putting the best team on the field).

[bbl]

There's a really nice 35-minute interview that Bonds did recently with Mike Krukow and Duane Kuiper. Not sure if it's on YouTube; can't check here at work. But if you can find it, it's a side of Bonds most people don't see.

 

It's 35-minutes of Bonds talking about baseball. Very refreshing. His knowledge of the game, and of pitchers, is incredible. Of course, as he will always claim, he was blessed to be the son of Bobby Bonds, who taught him everything he needed to know. And of course, his godfather Willie Mays taught him a few things, too.

 

He expressed a lot of appreciation and respect for other players he's played with (Van Slyke, Matt Williams) and against (Tony Gwynn, Biggio), including many pitchers he faced (Gagne, Tudor, Johnson). They replayed some of his classic AB's, with Bonds narrarating. I really enjoyed it.

 

When he talked about his hitting approach, he reminded me of Tony Gwynn.

 

He truly believes A-Rod will break his record, and he'll be in the front row cheering him on when he does.

[PrestiaRules]

Carl Lewis

[Psilocybin]

I'm ecstatic, personally. I only have to endure one more week of the sports mouthpieces talking about Bonds nonstop, then it will be a non-story because NFL is getting underway! Thanks Barry, for getting it over with as quickly as possible. C7

 

 

Lately we have butted heads but I couldn't agree with you more on this.

[King Kashue]

using steroids and was caught using amphetamines. Neither of those are disputed." It reads completely differently than "he's admitted to using steroids". Whether or not he actually knew is beside the point, it's all about what he communicated. Just saying that he's admitted to using steroids is kind of like saying that, if A=B, then A=C without saying that B=C.

 

I said: "Bonds testified under oath that he took the cream and the clear (the only thing in question is whether he knew what they were or not)." two lines before where you're saying I omitted "knowingly"...

 

Context baby...

 

I'm guessing that he had an agreement that he'd not be told specifically what he was taking but, as long as it helped his career along, it was ok with him, the "ignorance is bliss" route.

 

So if I ask a friend "Hey, I want you to inject something into my arm to get me really {censored}ing high", does that mean that I'm not really taking heroin?

 

And ya, the whole Mark Sweeny thing was pretty cheesy, pretty bad form IMO.

 

He got caught in an outright lie. A lie in which he blamed someone else for providing an illegal performance enhancer.

 

How can anyone believe him in his other claims of "I didn't know what this other guy was giving me"? People that believe him boggle my mind.

[Emprov]

I said: "Bonds testified under oath that he took the cream and the clear (the only thing in question is whether he knew what they were or not )." two lines before where you're saying I omitted "knowingly"... Context baby...

 

Typically, the last thing that is said while building an argument is what people will walk away with. I stand by my comment.

 

 

So if I ask a friend "Hey, I want you to inject something into my arm to get me really {censored}ing high" , does that mean that I'm not really taking heroin?

Hey man, hand over a wad of cash that's big enough and I'll tell you whatever you want to hear...I'd probably do it while putting vodka in your martini though.

 

 

He got caught in an outright lie. A lie in which he blamed someone else for providing an illegal performance enhancer. How can anyone believe him in his other claims of "I didn't know what this other guy was giving me"? People that believe him boggle my mind.

 

While I wouldn't necessarily call whites a performance enhancing drug, it's a different situation. Bonds has lawyers that are good enough to keep that and steroids completely different issues. Sad but true.

[King Kashue]

Typically, the last thing that is said while building an argument is what people will walk away with. I stand by my comment.

 

And my position is that if your attention span is so short you can't remember the previous two sentences, it's not my problem

 

Hey man, hand over a wad of cash that's big enough and I'll tell you whatever you want to hear...I'd probably do it while putting vodka in your martini though.

 

But do you honestly think that I would truly believe you were shooting saline into my arm?

 

While I wouldn't necessarily call whites a performance enhancing drug, it's a different situation. Bonds has lawyers that are good enough to keep that and steroids completely different issues. Sad but true.

 

Baseball players have been using greenies for four decades now. They're absolutely performance enhancers.

 

And not only that, they have a similar effect. Greenies keep you energized as the season wears on. Older players have less stamina, and thus taking greenies is an even bigger benefit for them.

 

Just like Steroids would keep Bonds chugging from season to season, greenies would keep him chugging from game to game.

[Emprov]

And my position is that if your attention span is so short you can't remember the previous two sentences, it's not my problem

Not my attention span, it's a human tendency.

 

 

But do you honestly think that I would truly believe you were shooting saline into my arm?

Beside the point, it's only about what he admitted. And, there's a big difference between saline/heroin and the types of things that Bonds was given.

 

 

Baseball players have been using greenies for four decades now. They're absolutely performance enhancers. And not only that, they have a similar effect. Greenies keep you energized as the season wears on. Older players have less stamina, and thus taking greenies is an even bigger benefit for them. Just like Steroids would keep Bonds chugging from season to season, greenies would keep him chugging from game to game.

Having taken and sold many different flavors of uppers for quite a few years, I'd guess that they'd make hitting a twisting, turning 90+ mph pitch a bit more difficult. Aside from the occasional afternoon pickup, (which most people enjoy and require), uppers can make you turn in slightly better times when your doing endurance sports but that's about it as far as I can tell. Anything that requires extremely precise motor skills and patience, forget it. Do a few lines of coke and then play some ping pong, you'll see what I mean.

[King Kashue]

Beside the point, it's only about what he admitted. And, there's a big difference between saline/heroin and the types of things that Bonds was given.

 

And considering flaxseed oil is usually injested whereas the "flaxseed oil" he took was delivered from a measured dropper underneath his tongue, his "I didn't know what it was" claim is just as ludicrous...

 

Not to mention that he likely didn't have any arthritis in his biceps and thigh muscles, seeing as muscles aren't subject to arthritis

 

Having taken and sold many different flavors of uppers for quite a few years, I'd guess that they'd make hitting a twisting, turning 90+ mph pitch a bit more difficult. Aside from the occasional afternoon pickup, (which most people enjoy and require), uppers can make you turn in slightly better times when your doing endurance sports but that's about it as far as I can tell. Anything that requires extremely precise motor skills and patience, forget it. Do a few lines of coke and then play some ping pong, you'll see what I mean.

 

You're welcome to your opinions, but the evidence doesn't support you. As I said, baseball players have been taking them for four decades. And actually, it's hitters who generally use them, hitting is about split second reactions. It's pitchers who don't benefit much from the effects.

 

Jim Bouton wrote about their widespread use in Ball Four. Tony Gwynn puts it at 50% of players using them during his day. I played with guys who used them.

 

Considering greenies were a significant enough issue that MLB created a policy banning them and has begun a crackdown on them (which is what caught Bonds), at the very least, they disagree with your assessment

[bassesofalessergod]

do you guys REALLY care this much about baseball?

[Emprov]

 

And considering flaxseed oil is usually injested whereas the "flaxseed oil" he took was delivered from a measured dropper underneath his tongue, his "I didn't know what it was" claim is just as ludicrous... Not to mention that he likely didn't have any arthritis in his biceps and thigh muscles, seeing as muscles aren't subject to arthritis

 

 

While I'm not going to defend him, I will say that there are at least a few different philosophies of delivery of herbs and oils into the body. And, neither you or I were in Barry's session when he was told to rub the cream/oil in or lift his tongue. We've been give an extremely narrow perspective of the process, we've also only been provided with a few choice morsels of his testimony. When that, and his treatments are viewed in full, things may appear differently, they may not. I've learned long ago not to trust the press for the sole source of my opinion. Unfortunately, there's not much else from which to work in this case.

 

 

You're welcome to your opinions, but the evidence doesn't support you. As I said, baseball players have been taking them for four decades. And actually, it's hitters who generally use them, hitting is about split second reactions. It's pitchers who don't benefit much from the effects. Jim Bouton wrote about their widespread use in Ball Four. Tony Gwynn puts it at 50% of players using them during his day. I played with guys who used them.

 

The evidence doesn't support me? I never said that speed wasn't used in baseball, I would have been surprised if it wasn't. I don't take issue with its use, what I do take issue with is you classifying it as a performance enhancing drug on the same level as steroids. I've read that a cup of coffee before a race can be beneficial, I've never read that speed makes you better at fielding a grounder or hitting a baseball. Sure, maybe it keeps you a little amped for the game but I can't imagine that it does much else. Can you provide any evidence to support you words?