Bonds hits 756

[Funkee1]

 

No Giants fan here (huge Cubs fan), but I think it's a little ridiculous. Take anything you want--anything--then climb in a batting cage and start taking swings at a 90 mph fastball. A fastball that you know is going to go in the same direction, and in the same place everytime. See how many you hit, let alone drive. Now, mix in curves, change-ups, knuckleballs, forkballs, sliders, wild pitches, etc. and see how many hits you get. Steroids do NOT make you hit the ball. Nor do they make you hit it farther. They may allow you to heal faster from an injury, or sustain more momentum over the long term, but you still have to have the talent to get around on a pitch from a major league pitcher. And Barry has done that better than anyone else, at least in the home run department.

 

Thank you!!! That's what I been sayin!!!!!!!

[Kindness]

Thank you!!! That's what I been sayin!!!!!!!

We hear you, you are just wrong. Specifically that steroids don't make you hit the ball further.

I get your basic point and agree with it to an extent. If everyone in the world were taking steroids, Barry would probably still be the best hitter, but let's not claim that the 'roids don't make him hit the ball further.

[RSBro]

Just like roids don't make you crazy and keep your body in top physical condition and murder your wife and kid and yourself (see Chris Benoit episode...)


I hear this often and love repeating it, but if steroids do allegedly "so little", why do guys risk careers and possible entrance into Cooperstown to take these non-performance enhancing drugs?

[Funkee1]

We hear you, you are just wrong. Specifically that steroids don't make you hit the ball further. I get your basic point and agree with it to an extent. If everyone in the world were taking steroids, Barry would probably still be the best hitter, but let's not claim that the 'roids don't make him hit the ball further.

"But like Yo-yo.... You don't hear me tho......"

Steroids may have enhanced his performance, but it was still Barry who faced down opposing pitchers. I don't care what drugs you take, it will NOT improve the number of times the bat connects with the ball. If it did, do you think he'd have gone through that cold streak?

[Kindness]

 

"But like Yo-yo.... You don't hear me tho......" Steroids may have enhanced his performance, but it was still Barry who faced down opposing pitchers. I don't care what drugs you take, it will NOT improve the number of times the bat connects with the ball. If it did, do you think he'd have gone through that cold streak?

 

 

You're still wrong, but I still love you.

 

The number of times the bat connects with the ball is dependent on a greater number of factors than we can identify. Barry is naturally better at a lot of factors than everyone else. Barry has worked hard to be better than everyone else at some other factors. Barry has cheated to be better at some of the factors than everyone else.

 

Here's one example, the steroids help him with his bat speed. Having great bat speed doesn't mean you can hit a baseball - it's just one factor. However, he has prevented nature from eroding his bat speed. This is his advantage. Without the steroids, while still being the best in the world in most of the hitting factors, he still would not have had the same accomplishments without ALL of the factors being in place.

 

There have been a lot of great baseball players that have juiced. None of them come close to Barry. He is a badass. But he is a cheater. Steroids aren't the only reason he is the best around, but without steroids, he would not be as good as he is.

[ivanthetrble]

My reaction = yawn.

Bonds is an asshole + cheat = cheating asshole. If MLB had their {censored} together he shouldn't even be playing. Bonds is hitting #756 while his old trainer is jailed for not spilling the beans about Bonds steroid use. Nice guy!

[Emprov]

Bonds is hitting #756 while his old trainer is jailed for not spilling the beans about Bonds steroid use. Nice guy!

I'm sure that his trainer will be well compensated.

[ivanthetrble]

I'm sure that his trainer will be well compensated.

I have no doubt that his is. Only question remains is how long will have to spend in jail before they either give up on the case or unti he cracks and rats out Bonds?

[ThudMaker]

"But like Yo-yo.... You don't hear me tho......" Steroids may have enhanced his performance, but it was still Barry who faced down opposing pitchers. I don't care what drugs you take, it will NOT improve the number of times the bat connects with the ball. If it did, do you think he'd have gone through that cold streak?

That's why his batting average for his career up through mid-30's was at .290 and when he got 35 and above his batting average went well over .300 and his power numbers increased significantly. Those numbers alone don't back up your premise.

[PrestiaRules]

I'll jump back in to defend my position on Ripken. I'll be the first to admit my position is not commonly adhered to. Basically, I watched the guy never take a day off BECAUSE of the streak. When he needed a rest he'd play 5 innings and then sit on the bench just to keep the streak alive. It wasn't long after he broke the record that he decided to take a day off. Coincidence? He was choosing his actions based on the numbers and the streak. It feels artificial to me. He broke the record, not because it happened in the natural course of his career, but because he forced himself (and his managers) to. By all accounts he is a humble guy. By all accounts he is one of the best players at his position in his era. By all accounts he is much more of an inspiration than Barry Bonds. I simply take exception to the idea of consciously making decisions based on the streak.

 

 

 

Just IMHO I would go as far as to say he was hurting his team at the end. He wasn't the best player they could have fielded at that position but due to his presence in Baltimore and 'the streak' they couldn't replace him.

 

I recall several articles stating that he was far from the friendliest guy in the dugout and was particularly nasty to younger players.

 

Plus that a guy like like Tony Fernandes could out field him anyday of the week. I always thought Ripken to have a pretty limited range...what was in his range he never missed but that range was no where near the Ozzie Smiths or the like.

 

I am not a Ripken hater but I highly doubt anyone that self obsessed was a 'great guy' or humble.

[Kindness]

I am not a Ripken hater but I highly doubt anyone that self obsessed was a 'great guy' or humble.

 

 

Much like Jordan, he is smart enough to understand the important of media and public perception. That is his strongest asset.

[Emprov]

Much like Jordan, he is smart enough to understand the important of media and public perception. That is his strongest asset.

Bingo. Anyone know Jordan's political views? Nope.

[ThudMaker]

but that range was no where near the Ozzie Smiths or the like.

Ozzie Smith had the batting average of a pitcher at the plate, too. Let's compare apples to apples. Ripken changed the prototypical short stop from being a good glove man up the middle to one of being a hitter in the line up, opening the door for the likes of A-Rod and Jeter.

[PrestiaRules]

******snip*** And I never said he wasn't a great hitter. But so were Palmero, McGwire and Sosa, etc.. and they still get nailed to the roids crucifix daily. I haven't paid attention to baseball in years, so it's no biggie for me. I just hate it gets so much coverage.

 

 

but not one of those guys has been nailed and hated like Barry. McGwire was a hero for those few years.

 

the big difference is that even with all the juice, those guys were not even close to the player Bonds is. I don't like him but I find myself constantly defending him...if no one ever took roids he would be one of the greatest players of the modern era...if everyone took roids he would be one of the greatest players of the modern era...I don't see why the fact that he is better than anyone else who took roids makes him any more a 'cheat' or an a-hole or whatever.

 

IMHO the reason he gets crucified is because of his relationship with the media...they hate him because of his cold shoulder attitude to them so they magnify everything he does...they used to work overtime to frame his as this big jerk and now they do the same to make him seem like the kingpin roider....

[Kindness]

I nominate PrestiaRules to speak for me in this thread. I no longer need to write anything myself. Just assume I am +1'ing him.

[ThudMaker]

but not one of those guys has been nailed and hated like Barry. McGwire was a hero for those few years.

And you'll notice that McGuire is not even on anyone's radar anymore. People associate cheating with McGuire and Sosa, too. They are discredited and it has nothing to do with being a media darling or not.

[Emprov]

 

And you'll notice that McGuire is not even on anyone's radar anymore. People associate cheating with McGuire and Sosa, too. They are discredited and it has nothing to do with being a media darling or not.

 

But think of when they were in the home run chase together. I don't think that anyone doubted that there were steroids involved and they were the media darlings. Even when he and Canseco were the Bash Brothers out in Oakland, there was talk of 'roids. McGuire talked quite a bit about using performance enhancing drugs but said that it was over the counter stuff -- ephedra and a few others. Nobody really pushed it further than that but everyone, out here at least, pretty much knew that he was juicing. Bonds is definitely getting special treatment.

[PrestiaRules]

Ozzie Smith had the batting average of a pitcher at the plate, too. Let's compare apples to apples. Ripken changed the prototypical short stop from being a good glove man up the middle to one of being a hitter in the line up, opening the door for the likes of A-Rod and Jeter.

 

 

yeah but comparing A-Rod or Jeeter to Ripken is like comparing apples to some kind of fruit that has no range.

 

Lets compare Fernandez and Ripken...an American hero and a guy who won't get a whiff at the Hall of Fame but was unquestionably a better defensive SS.

 

C Ripken lifetime avg. GP 3001 lifetime avg - .276 best season avg. -.340

avg in last season - .239

 

Tony Fernandez GP 2158 lifetime avg.- .288 best season avg.- .328

avg in last season (split between Mil and Toronto .281 and .305 but in only 76 games) (last season with more than 100 GP was 1999 when he hit .328)

 

btw Ozzie Smith - GP 2573 lifetime avg. .262 best season avg. .303 last season avg. .282...hardly the numbers of a pitcher.

 

 

Obviously Ripken owns in games played...but in productive games played? From '94 thru '01 he hit over 300 twice...and more than 20HRs once. Are those great #s for an average fielder at SS? There is no way anyone else would have continued to get sent out there if not for the streak.

 

Had Fernandez the presence and postion of Ripken I am sure he could have played several more years...his productions was still great in his last seasons. He started to play some 3rd bass willingly because it would help his teams...)

[wedgeffect]

 

I'll jump back in to defend my position on Ripken. I'll be the first to admit my position is not commonly adhered to. Basically, I watched the guy never take a day off BECAUSE of the streak. When he needed a rest he'd play 5 innings and then sit on the bench just to keep the streak alive. It wasn't long after he broke the record that he decided to take a day off. Coincidence? He was choosing his actions based on the numbers and the streak. It feels artificial to me. He broke the record, not because it happened in the natural course of his career, but because he forced himself (and his managers) to. By all accounts he is a humble guy. By all accounts he is one of the best players at his position in his era. By all accounts he is much more of an inspiration than Barry Bonds. I simply take exception to the idea of consciously making decisions based on the streak.

 

 

Would you really call playing another 500 games to be not long after breaking the record? Also, how many times did he only play 5 innings just to keep the streak alive?

[ThudMaker]

But think of when they were in the home run chase together. I don't think that anyone doubted that there were steroids involved and they were the media darlings. Even when he and Canseco were the Bash Brothers out in Oakland, there was talk of 'roids. McGuire talked quite a bit about using performance enhancing drugs but said that it was over the counter stuff -- ephedra and a few others. Nobody really pushed it further than that but everyone, out here at least, pretty much knew that he was juicing. Bonds is definitely getting special treatment.

Andro, too. You also have to remember the time frame was shortly after the long strike. People were simply interested in seeing baseball, and MLB looked the other way, because all the home runs were bringing fans back to the ball parks. We're well over the juicers by now, along with the baseballs being different theories and the atmosphere being different, etc. Nobody wants to see a 1-0 Zambrano vs Oswalt game every day. They want to see the ball leave the yard.

[collinwho]

I think everyone is missing what is really important.

The Simpson's take on baseball.

[Kindness]

Would you really call playing another 500 games to be not long after breaking the record? Also, how many times did he only play 5 innings just to keep the streak alive?

 

 

He did what he thought was best for himself and not for the team. He tied his managers hands. Was it the worst thing having to play Ripken every day? No. Would any manager have done it with the best interests of the team in mind? No.

 

Staying healthy and relevant to the game was his accomplishment. The numbers were his ego.

[Funkee1]

This Just in: Bonds breaks Hank Aaron's record, and the world continues revolving!!! Film at 11!!!!!

[wedgeffect]

 

He did what he thought was best for himself and not for the team. He tied his managers hands. Was it the worst thing having to play Ripken every day? No. Would any manager have done it with the best interests of the team in mind? No. Staying healthy and relevant to the game was his accomplishment. The numbers were his ego.

 

 

I would hardly say staying healthy was his only accomplishment. During the time that Ripken broke Gehrig's record, he averaged 23 HRs a year, 90 RBI, .277 BA, won Rookie of the Year, MVP, 8 Silver Sluggers, 2 Gold Gloves, etc. Who was a better shortstop during that time? If he was healthy & wanted to play every game, why not let him? Would having a bench player play give your team a better chance to win? Is it really that bad of a thing to have a millionaire ballplayer want to play every game?

[Kindness]

Forgive me for not wanting to continue the conversation, but the only thing more boring than watching Cal Ripken play would be to argue about him on the internet. I get that he is beloved by many. I personally think he gets more credit than he deserves. I'm sure you think I get more credit than I deserve. You're probably more right than I am.