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Bonds hits 756


Emprov

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Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?

 

 

 

he also had to play against far superior defensive players, bullpen specialists and modern gloves

 

If I remember at least 3 of his MVPs were won prior to the change.

 

the guy is a hall of fame level player regardless. It is too bad all of this contoversy had to occur. I do think he is a juiced as The Rocket and they should both share the same fate.

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You mean like most hits in a season, total stolen basses, steals in a season and most consecutive games played? Oh, and didn't some guy just become the fastest player ever to hit 500 home runs?
:confused:



Your definition of "this era" is 2.5 times longer than pretty much everyone elses...

Henderson's record was in 1982!...

Half the people on this forum weren't even born then, and the MLB leader in Homeruns was Reggie Jackson with 39 and 6 people hit 35 or more...Last year, 11 people hit more than Reggie Jackson, and more than two dozen hit 35.

To claim those two years are part of the "same era" is ridiculous.

In the entire 80s, NO ONE hit 50 home runs. From 1990-94 one person hit 50...From 1995 to 2002, 18 people hit 50 home runs or more (including six people hitting 60 or more)...

15 years = 1 person.
8 years = 18 people.

And those are the same era?

There's a reason that writers and commentators begin the "Juiced Offense Era" in the early/mid 90s...

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he also had to play against far superior defensive players, bullpen specialists and modern gloves


If I remember at least 3 of his MVPs were won prior to the change.


the guy is a hall of fame level player regardless. It is too bad all of this contoversy had to occur. I do think he is a juiced as The Rocket and they should both share the same fate.

 

 

No argument there. He was a hall of famer before any questions and he still is.

 

Even if he took steroids before it was against the rules (which he has admitted, under oath, that he did), it shouldn't keep him out of the hall of fame.

 

The only way he should possibly be kept out of the hall of fame is if he was shown to have repeatedly taken steroids after it was against the rules (which is exceedingly unlikely to happen)...

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KK is dead on about the "eras." Doesn't mean that there weren't cheaters in 1982. Just a different era of cheaters.



Assloads of guys on Greenies...

All those stolen bases and hit and runs weren't the only reasons that the 80s game was a "speed" game :D


Note though, greenies weren't against the rules until the recent drug rules a few years ago (and Bonds tested positive for those as well).

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No argument there. He was a hall of famer before any questions and he still is.


Even if he took steroids before it was against the rules (which he has admitted, under oath, that he did), it shouldn't keep him out of the hall of fame.


The only way he should possibly be kept out of the hall of fame is if he was shown to have repeatedly taken steroids after it was against the rules (which is exceedingly unlikely to happen)...



Do you think that it would be unfair to keep him out of the Hall based on the fact that his drug use was illegal, regardless of the rules of baseball at the time?

I don't. A game shouldn't have to explicitly ban illegal activity. I wonder where the rule is that says I can't kill the opposing pitcher. (I'm kidding. Don't show me, I don't want to see it. :p)

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Even Canseco, who says that everyone, including the batboys and club house attendants, juiced, claims that in the late 80s it was largely unused and it was the late 80s and early 90s that saw the wide explosion of usage.

 

Wow, I don't even know where to start here. When I was playing football in high school and college, juicing was pretty common in both it and baseball at those levels, (graduated hs in '83), -- many of the players played both sports. And, had been around for quite a while. To say that it wasn't to be found in professional baseball IMO would be pretty naive and irresponsible. Heck, it was all over the place!

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Do you think that it would be unfair to keep him out of the Hall based on the fact that his drug use was illegal, regardless of the rules of baseball at the time?


I don't. A game shouldn't have to explicitly ban illegal activity. I wonder where the rule is that says I can't kill the opposing pitcher. (I'm kidding. Don't show me, I don't want to see it.
:p
)



Illegal != cheating.

The rules of the game are the rules of the game. Plenty of stuff that goes on in a sporting even could be felonies in the real world.

Throwing at someone's head? Bad form, a reason to get plunked yourself, but not against the rules even though it's assault pretty much everywhere but a sports field.


The other reason is the manner of the offense. Bonds cheated in order to win. Just like Bob Gibson, Gaylord Perry, and the bridade of pitchers who threw the spitter and a scuffball.

The offenses that have kept people out of the hall of fame are those which undermine the competition itself. The Black Sox throwing the series. Rose betting on games. Bonds is only an issue because he now holds two of the more prominent records in baseball.

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Wow, I don't even know where to start here. When I was playing football in high school and college, juicing was pretty common in both it and baseball at those levels, (graduated hs in '83), -- many of the players played both sports. And, had been around for quite a while. To say that it wasn't to be found in professional baseball IMO would be pretty naive and irresponsible. Heck, it was all over the place!

 

 

I'm not saying it wasn't there, I'm saying few people used it until the later 80s.

 

Note, you're talking about two sport guys. The witnesses to Football steroid use put it much earlier than the "baseball witnesses".

 

Just like Baseball players in general didn't work out until the 70s since they thought the muscle would slow them down, Baseball didn't become a power sport again until the late 80s.

 

In any case, the numbers are the issue under discussion. A year in which the MLB leader hit 39 home runs doesn't seem to be in a continuity with a year where the league leader hit 34 more than that (and a guy with 45 was ninth).

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The offenses that have kept people out of the hall of fame are those which undermine the competition itself. The Black Sox throwing the series. Rose betting on games. Bonds is only an issue because he now holds two of the more prominent records in baseball.

 

 

This is why I believe Barry will eventually be in the Hall. But he might be in jail first.

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Ripken is a fraud as well. No question. His record was all about ego and that gets no respect from me. None.

 

 

Why the hate for Cal? He's apparently one of the nicest, well liked players out there. When he got his HoF plaque, my dad (huge baseball nut) headed up to Cooperstown. He's been to a bunch (since my family used to live in upstate NY), and he said it was the most impressive turnout. It looked like an orioles game. The few I went to when I was a kid hardly had that kind of turnout. You'd only see one or two jerseys from the inductees teams.

 

I've heard from Baltimore residents (my mom grew up there, my grandma still lives there), Cal was one of the most humble guys you'd meet. Maybe I haven't heard something, but it seemed like he really didn't have much of an ego...

 

Hell of a ball player too. You can't deny that he was a damn good SS before he got old.

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Why the hate for Cal? He's apparently one of the nicest, well liked players out there. When he got his HoF plaque, my dad (huge baseball nut) headed up to Cooperstown. He's been to a bunch (since my family used to live in upstate NY), and he said it was the most impressive turnout. It looked like an orioles game. The few I went to when I was a kid hardly had that kind of turnout. You'd only see one or two jerseys from the inductees teams.


I've heard from Baltimore residents (my mom grew up there, my grandma still lives there), Cal was one of the most humble guys you'd meet. Maybe I haven't heard something, but it seemed like he really didn't have much of an ego...


Hell of a ball player too. You can't deny that he was a damn good SS before he got old.

 

 

I totally agree with you on this one. I live in maryland and have been to dozens of baseball games, many of which were when Cal Ripken was playing. He was extremely humble and was defenitley not a fraud. It was never about ego, and no offense to kindness, but you dont know what your talking about. This record will never be broken, and Cal was an amazing player. Bar none, one of the greatest players for baseball, unlike Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Mark Mcgwire, etc.

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I think that if there was a problem with steroid use, it's more MLB's fault than anyone in particular.
Remember the strike in '94?
Baseball wanted to get their fans back afteward.
They turned their heads to what was going on when Sosa and McGuire were battling for 61.
Then Bonds hit 73.
It was good for the game.
Fans came back, and new fans came aboard also.
The players did what we, as fans wanted. They delivered.

Congrats to Barry Bonds!!:thu:

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I totally agree with you on this one. I live in maryland and have been to dozens of baseball games, many of which were when Cal Ripken was playing. He was extremely humble and was defenitley not a fraud. It was never about ego, and no offense to kindness, but you dont know what your talking about. This record will never be broken, and Cal was an amazing player. Bar none, one of the greatest players for baseball, unlike Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Mark Mcgwire, etc.

+1,000,000

Shame on Emprov, too, for dragging Ripken's name into this thread. Ripken never has been accused of cheating, and no one ever will. You can look at his body as he went through the years and figure that one out. He was a heckuva a good guy and still does a lot of good for baseball, particularly youth baseball. He is a crusader against travel teams and too intense competition for young players, along with promoting more safe equipment for youth baseball. He's a gem that has no business being discussed in the same mud as the roid monsters Sosa, McGuire and Bonds.

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If he isn't, I am.
:D

Nolan Ryan is still capable of throwing 90+ BP for college kids. Is there a reason at his age, he'd still be cheating? Doubtful. The fact is his mechanics were superior and he was durable. His record is based upon longevity, not wiping the competition out. He has a lot of losses to go along with the 300+ wins. Throwing good people's names around who have not been embattled in any controversy is poor, when there is no evidence to back it up. Let's stick to Barry Bonds and the fact that it's a shame he got caught up in the cream/clear mess, becasue the guy was on pace to be a sure fire HOF player when he retired without the stuff.;)

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Why the hate for Cal? He's apparently one of the nicest, well liked players out there. When he got his HoF plaque, my dad (huge baseball nut) headed up to Cooperstown. He's been to a bunch (since my family used to live in upstate NY), and he said it was the most impressive turnout. It looked like an orioles game. The few I went to when I was a kid hardly had that kind of turnout. You'd only see one or two jerseys from the inductees teams.


I've heard from Baltimore residents (my mom grew up there, my grandma still lives there), Cal was one of the most humble guys you'd meet. Maybe I haven't heard something, but it seemed like he really didn't have much of an ego...


Hell of a ball player too. You can't deny that he was a damn good SS before he got old.

 

 

 

Agreed on all counts - Ripken *could've* played for another team, and made ALOT more $$$, but played his entire career in Baltimore... I've met him a couple of times, and he was always very nice to anyone I saw around him, including me...

 

 

 

- georgestrings

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+1,000,000

Shame on Emprov, too, for dragging Ripken's name into this thread. Ripken never has been accused of cheating, and no one ever will. You can look at his body as he went through the years and figure that one out. He was a heckuva a good guy and still does a lot of good for baseball, particularly youth baseball. He is a crusader against travel teams and too intense competition for young players, along with promoting more safe equipment for youth baseball. He's a gem that has no business being discussed in the same mud as the roid monsters Sosa, McGuire and Bonds.

 

 

 

Agreed 100%...

 

 

 

 

- georgestrings

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I know it's not the same, but What if Bonds had had LAsik Surgery instead of doing Steroids? Would we still be having this argument?

 

That is a performance enhancement, and players before him did not have that advantage.

 

You're all kidding yourselves if you think the rest of the players in baseball aren't doing everything they can to continue playing, and be their best, up to , and including performance enhancements that are of questionable legality.

 

How many of these guys say their trainers gave them the stuff, and they didn't know was illegal?

 

MLB knew this stuff was going on, and turned a blind eye, and now their home run king is the poster boy for juicing. They asked for it, they got it........... Toyota!

 

Sorry.... I couldn't resist it! :D

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I know it's not the same, but What if Bonds had had LAsik Surgery instead of doing Steroids? Would we still be having this argument?


That is a performance enhancement, and players before him did not have that advantage.


You're all kidding yourselves if you think the rest of the players in baseball aren't doing everything they can to continue playing, and be their best, up to , and including performance enhancements that are of questionable legality.


How many of these guys say their trainers gave them the stuff, and they didn't know was illegal?


MLB knew this stuff was going on, and turned a blind eye, and now their home run king is the poster boy for juicing. They asked for it, they got it........... Toyota!


Sorry.... I couldn't resist it!
:D



No, because that doesn't enhance your ability to still be mid 40's and knock home runs out of the park. Just to see the ball. You can wear Rec-Specs or get contacts for that one... ;)

Also, Lasik side effects don't include enlargements of the head and feet, just a few years past your growth spurt... ;):D

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I'll jump back in to defend my position on Ripken. I'll be the first to admit my position is not commonly adhered to. Basically, I watched the guy never take a day off BECAUSE of the streak. When he needed a rest he'd play 5 innings and then sit on the bench just to keep the streak alive. It wasn't long after he broke the record that he decided to take a day off. Coincidence? He was choosing his actions based on the numbers and the streak. It feels artificial to me. He broke the record, not because it happened in the natural course of his career, but because he forced himself (and his managers) to.

 

By all accounts he is a humble guy. By all accounts he is one of the best players at his position in his era. By all accounts he is much more of an inspiration than Barry Bonds. I simply take exception to the idea of consciously making decisions based on the streak.

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