Members Ender_rpm Posted August 15, 2007 Members Share Posted August 15, 2007 And you know this how? History mein freund. Rome, Byzantium, The Spanish and English empires, all lost the ability to produce enough basic goods to keep from going under when their trade networks failed. The US is in an interesting spot, since we theoretically COULD be self sufficient IF we were willing to: 1. Use extensive nuclear, coal, and sustainable energy sources (sun, wind, geo, NOT bio diesel or sthanol) 2. Accept a much lower standard of living. Look at the cost of Levi's jeans. Before they stopped making them in the US, Levi's cost $60/pair. Made overseas to the same tolerances, they cost $30. So if we made everything in the US, it would cost twice as much, conservatively speaking, for EVERYTHING. The US is one of the winners of Globalization, the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs not withstanding. We all compete in a global market now, we need to stop looking back at protectionism and labor immobility as some sort of golden era, whether it was or no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gourd of Ashes Posted August 15, 2007 Members Share Posted August 15, 2007 The US is one of the winners of Globalization, the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs not withstanding. We all compete in a global market now, we need to stop looking back at protectionism and labor immobility as some sort of golden era, whether it was or no. be careful of that cool aid you're drinkin', it may be made in China Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members greenshag Posted August 15, 2007 Members Share Posted August 15, 2007 be careful of that cool aid you're drinkin', it may be made in China yummmm....chinese kool-aid:thu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ender_rpm Posted August 15, 2007 Members Share Posted August 15, 2007 be careful of that cool aid you're drinkin', it may be made in China Sorry, I've spent enough times overseas to see the up and downsides of globalization. The educated and hard working do well. The lazy and complacent, not so much. In the US the only major economic/job sectors that have seen sustained shrinkage have been farm work and manufacturing, and even that is sectoral, in that it depends on where in the food chain you fall. A GED and a union job at GM will not buy economic stability in the 21st century. Its not cool aid, its just not having my head stuck so far up my ass fresh air tastes sweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted August 15, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted August 15, 2007 And you know this how? Because I passed Math in second grade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hawkhuff Posted August 16, 2007 Members Share Posted August 16, 2007 Sorry, I've spent enough times overseas to see the up and downsides of globalization. The educated and hard working do well. The lazy and complacent, not so much. In the US the only major economic/job sectors that have seen sustained shrinkage have been farm work and manufacturing, and even that is sectoral, in that it depends on where in the food chain you fall. A GED and a union job at GM will not buy economic stability in the 21st century. Its not cool aid, its just not having my head stuck so far up my ass fresh air tastes sweet. Everyone know you get your information/marching orders from all the typical Neo-Con websites. You're incapable of original thought. You are a lemming. Have I forgotten any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chunky-b Posted August 16, 2007 Members Share Posted August 16, 2007 She has passed my multi-point inspection and I have come to the conclusion she is lead-free... Just to be safe, you might want to keep up routine and scheduled inspections until your 100% sure! You can never be too careful, you know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ender_rpm Posted August 16, 2007 Members Share Posted August 16, 2007 Everyone know you get your information/marching orders from all the typical Neo-Con websites. You're incapable of original thought. You are a lemming. Have I forgotten any? You forgot to call me a sheeple, or a pawn of the military industrial complex. Jeez man, you're slipping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jugghaid Posted August 16, 2007 Members Share Posted August 16, 2007 I'm far from a protectionist. However, I would like to see fair trade really be fair trade. same levels of tarriffs etc on import and export duties. But I'm all for cheap quality goods. I just wish the US could still produce them. Unions have killed that ever happeneing again. They would rather be unemployed and striking to get $35 an hour than working for $20 an hour. Meanwhile corporate america outsources for $20 a day. duhhh........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hawkhuff Posted August 16, 2007 Members Share Posted August 16, 2007 You forgot to call me a sheeple, or a pawn of the military industrial complex. Jeez man, you're slipping I believed lemming captured all that. You....you......neocon.....wildlife hating.......Haliburton PLANET KILLER!! DOH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ender_rpm Posted August 16, 2007 Members Share Posted August 16, 2007 I hate to bring it up, but Marx's critique of the relative immobility of labour vice capitol is right on. And Unions were most powerful when we weren't trading with 2/3 of the world (USSR/PRC/ India). It's gonna take some time, but specialization will eventually be the only way to thrive in the global market. Which means education, which Americans are notoriously famous for not taking advantage of (myself included) because we don;t want to put in the work required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crescent Seven Posted August 16, 2007 Members Share Posted August 16, 2007 I just wish the US could still produce them. Unions have killed that ever happeneing again. They would rather be unemployed and striking to get $35 an hour than working for $20 an hour. {censored} Juggs! Our workers need a LIVING WAGE!!! I can't live off of just $20 an hour. I need at least $35 an hour, these 40 hour weeks of pushing this button are grueling! Oh well, off on my vacation. I have 5 weeks paid, since I've been with the company over a year now. C7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jugghaid Posted August 16, 2007 Members Share Posted August 16, 2007 I hate to bring it up, but Marx's critique of the relative immobility of labour vice capitol is right on. And Unions were most powerful when we weren't trading with 2/3 of the world (USSR/PRC/ India). It's gonna take some time, but specialization will eventually be the only way to thrive in the global market. Which means education, which Americans are notoriously famous for not taking advantage of (myself included) because we don;t want to put in the work required. That's okay. Were letting Koreans in by the boatload. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ender_rpm Posted August 16, 2007 Members Share Posted August 16, 2007 Interesting thought on all of this: Immigration is our own fault. 1. We pushed for every one to get a higher education, there fore pushing back the amount of time an adult has to reproduce, especially as women made such huge strides in society (not anti-fem, just sayin)2. We made abortion legal, which removed a huge base of lower class workers form the population. I doubt its a coincidence the abortion and immigration numbers are VERY close, in the 40 million range IIRC. Correlation =/ causation and all that, just saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted August 16, 2007 Moderators Share Posted August 16, 2007 {censored} Juggs! Our workers need a LIVING WAGE!!! I can't live off of just $20 an hour. I need at least $35 an hour, these 40 hour weeks of pushing this button are grueling! Oh well, off on my vacation. I have 5 weeks paid, since I've been with the company over a year now. C7 You forgot to add that you've already qualified for a huge retirement pension that by the time you retire no one is going to be able to afford to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crescent Seven Posted August 16, 2007 Members Share Posted August 16, 2007 You forgot to add that you've already qualified for a huge retirement pension that by the time you retire no one is going to be able to afford to pay. That's why I plan to retire as early as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hawkhuff Posted August 16, 2007 Members Share Posted August 16, 2007 I'm far from a protectionist. However, I would like to see fair trade really be fair trade. same levels of tarriffs etc on import and export duties. But I'm all for cheap quality goods. I just wish the US could still produce them. Unions have killed that ever happeneing again. They would rather be unemployed and striking to get $35 an hour than working for $20 an hour. Meanwhile corporate america outsources for $20 a day. duhhh........ There was a Delphi plant near my home in NY. It's all but closed now, but an assembly line worker assembling radiators was making, with benefits, $80 K per year. The company was spending more on benefits than they were on materials for the radiators. Something had to give. The company told the union (UAW) they had to accept pay reductions. The union told the company to go {censored} themselves. Now, many of them are without jobs, defaulting on their mortgages, and filing for bankruptcy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jugghaid Posted August 16, 2007 Members Share Posted August 16, 2007 There was a Delphi plant near my home in NY. It's all but closed now, but an assembly line worker assembling radiators was making, with benefits, $80 K per year. The company was spending more on benefits than they were on materials for the radiators. Something had to give. The company told the union (UAW) they had to accept pay reductions. The union told the company to go {censored} themselves. Now, many of them are without jobs, defaulting on their mortgages, and filing for bankruptcy. Typical. unfortunately typical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crescent Seven Posted August 16, 2007 Members Share Posted August 16, 2007 Something had to give. The company told the union (UAW) they had to accept pay reductions. The union told the company to go {censored} themselves. Now, many of them are without jobs, defaulting on their mortgages, and filing for bankruptcy. And the company is the bad guy in all of this, of course. Evil corporate monsters. I can sort of understand unions for tradesmen, but for manufacturing and commercial workers, it's a money grab, and when the union finally breaks the company, the union bosses don't lose their jobs over it, so they can play hardball all the want. And yet people still buy into this scam because it lines their pockets...just like the corporate monsters are doing. C7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hawkhuff Posted August 17, 2007 Members Share Posted August 17, 2007 And the company is the bad guy in all of this, of course. Evil corporate monsters. I can sort of understand unions for tradesmen, but for manufacturing and commercial workers, it's a money grab, and when the union finally breaks the company, the union bosses don't lose their jobs over it, so they can play hardball all the want. And yet people still buy into this scam because it lines their pockets...just like the corporate monsters are doing. C7 I would agree completely with one caveat. I worked in a heavily union medical center. Talk about a cluster {censored}. There were/are 5 different union contracts. Every time one turned around there were new concessions from management. In my opinion, very poor management who virtually gave the asylum away to the inmates. They had one of the most spineless labor attorneys I've ever seen and he was the 'negotiator'. All this because the administration didn't want negative press. I think some of this has gone on with the GM group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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