Members LavaMan Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 I have zero problems with the range of products you carry. I also agree that your prices do not seem out of line with the market and may in fact be priced at the low end of the market.You shouldn't make assumptions about me that you have no basis for making if you expect me to take you seriously. Not saying I don't take you seriously, but how I am supposed to take it when you say "Your website makes my egineering degree cry" ?Maybe I took that wrong, and if so I apologize, but it implied "snake oil".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted August 21, 2007 Moderators Share Posted August 21, 2007 You have a very nice website. While some of the claims in the industry are snake oil, your site does a great job of giving lots of facts and supportable information, but it does not do a good job of dispelling myths, hyperbole and snake oil. I'm sad anytime a person has an opportunity to educate and inform their customer base in ways to avoid being scammed and passes on the opportunity. That is my own personal and "fanatical" position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LavaMan Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 You have a very nice website. While some of the claims in the industry are snake oil, your site does a great job of giving lots of facts and supportable information, but it does not do a good job of dispelling myths, hyperbole and snake oil. I'm sad anytime a person has an opportunity to educate and inform their customer base in ways to avoid being scammed and passes on the opportunity. That is my own personal and "fanatical" position. Understandable. But, many of what you now believe as "myths" are actually based in sound engineering prinicples. All cables DO sound different. These differences can be explained by varying levels of capacitance, inductance, and use of metalurgy and other raw materials in the design and construction of cables. And, I do go into detail on the above and how cables behave sonically as result, understanding that there remains a great deal of subjectivity on the users part - hence the reason for carrying mulitple brands. Cable design is no different (other than simplicity) the design of any LIKE pedal - take your pick - Chorus, Delay, Distortion, etc... the basic circuit design is the same for all them, yet they each sound different and users will PREFER one pedal over another - WHY? They, just like a cable are providing a certain defined electronic function in your signal chain, yet minor changes and alterations to the base design produce significant changes to the overall sonic output of the pedals - it is no different with cables. The real problem is that there's a culture out there that has not been educated on the benefits of good cable design - this is because the music industry has been flooded with high capacitance, mass produced (millions of feet) cheap copper coax for the past 35 years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted August 21, 2007 Moderators Share Posted August 21, 2007 Understandable. But, many of what you now believe as "myths" are actually based in sound engineering prinicples. There you go again with the assumptions. I'll respond later when I'm not at work because I think the conversation is important to be had on the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mudbass Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 Understandable. But, many of what you now believe as "myths" are actually based in sound engineering prinicples. All cables DO sound different. These differences can be explained by varying levels of capacitance, inductance, and use of metalurgy and other raw materials in the design and construction of cables. ...and sun spots and moon rays and voodoo and... Some guys get real anal about their cables, but I'm a cheap date when it comes to cables. I've been playing for 40 years and I've never heard any difference between cables. The cheap assed cables sound just the same as the expensive ones to me and they do to the audience too. Cheap cables may pick up radio stations, they may fall apart faster and they end up being a 2 foot tangled up knott on the stage in 10 minutes, (all of which are reason enough not to buy them) but they sound just the same as the expensive botique stuff. If you think you hear a difference between the mega-mondo oxygen free, free range, no hormones or preservative cables and are willing to pay for them, then go for it, but chances are you're the only one who hears any freekin difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thunderbroom Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 There you go again with the assumptions. I'll respond later when I'm not at work because I think the conversation is important to be had on the forum. I'm looking forward to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members D Aussie Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 My favorite local music store has their 'own' labeled cables.I use them.They give them to me for using them.A fair arrangement if you ask me.Ask your local music store if you can have free ones to use on stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted August 21, 2007 Moderators Share Posted August 21, 2007 The real problem is that there's a culture out there that has not been educated on the benefits of good cable design - this is because the music industry has been flooded with high capacitance, mass produced (millions of feet) cheap copper coax for the past 35 years... Is the following educational? "What is oxygen-free and linear-crystal copper? How do they affect sound in cables? There is a continuing debate concerning the use of oxygen-free and linear-crystal copper wire. These types of wire contain lower levels of oxide impurities and fewer crystal boundaries than standard copper. Since these impurities form tiny semiconductors within the cable, the theory is that the cable itself introduces signal distortion, especially of low-level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Roguetitan Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 it is simple for me.I have fun making my own low Z and Hi Z cables, speaker cables, patch cables and snakes. which costs me a fraction of what they would cost already made up.so exactly how big of a market is there for Instrument and equipment cables?Maybe I need to start selling Instrument and equipment coax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LavaMan Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 Look Here's the deal: 1. Most folks cannot hear the difference in cables because at your local music store you have only two choices: copper coax and, uh...more copper coax...therefore unless you PERSONALLY have done listening tests with cables using OFC copper and normal bare copper, silver, alloy etc.. of various designs, you have no basis on which to argue that it is a myth, or that I am not "debunking a myth" by my descriptions on my website, some of which are not mine but open source material. A Little cable education for you (since even with an enegineering degree you seem to have none) 1. The pick ups in most electric basses and guitars are passive, (the are numerous active pick ups well) but, as a general rule passive pick ups are more dominant in the marketplace and preferred for their tonal qualities. (But even with active pickups, differences in cable design can be heard) 2. These passive pick ups are very high impedance devices typically on the order of 50,000 ohms or so - this fact clearly has an impact on cables, especially in terms of microphonic noise. Any alterations on cable design changes can readily be heard as a result 3. Your cable acts a HUGE FILTER in the signal path, therefore changes in capactive and inductance values, along with strand count, metalurgy and materials used for the dielectric, and jacketc DIRECTLY affect how the signal is tranferred from your pickups to you amp - again these changes can readily be heard. 4. Capacitance is typically lowered by injecting air or nitrogen into the polyethylene dielectric of a cable - this why it is called "foamed PE" The more air you put in the lower the capacitance - SCIENTIFIC FACT that DIRECTLY impacts how your guitar cable (FILTER) behaves in terms of signal transfer. Cable factories use proven formulas to do this - when I had my Lava ELC cable made (and continued to be made) I specified the capacitance value I wanted and the cable factory makes it that way... 5. Most of the so-called "Myths" you are referring to apply to cable companies who have targeted the HI-FI industry for the last 25 years or so - where the cable (UNLIKE A GUITAR/INSTRUMENT CABLE) has a the same source - recorded music and the cable, becuase of the absence of passive pick ups DOES NOT act as HUGE FILTER in the audio path in the same way. A CHORUS PEDAL IS A CHORUS PEDAL IS A CHORUS PEDAL (PLUG IN ANY PEDAL YOU WANT) THE OUTPUT IS THE SAME - CHORUS! Yet, changes the basic design yield significant changes in HOW the chorus sounds, than personal preference comes into play as people prefer one chorsus pedal over another based on what they are HEARING! AGAIN, IT IS NO DIFFERENT WITH CABLES - THE OUTPUT IS THE SAME - SIGNAL. I have about 85% of the world's cable designs in my shop. I, as well as many guitarists I know have done extensive listening tests - AND CLEAR AUDIBLE DIFFERENCES CAN BE HEARD! And, epxlained by fundamental cable design science. I have personally heard the differences between OFC copper and bare copper - so when you go on do your own listening tests get back with me, otherwise keep your criticism to your self. Oh, BTW...send me your ship to address to mark@lavacable.com and I will send you one of my high end cables for free and you will hear you bass like you have never heard it before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rippin' Robin Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 If it isn't measurable, by controlled, scientific, repeatable physical measurements or controlled, scientific, repeatable audible measurements (including ABX testing), it simply doesn't exist. A-men. But let me add that these repeatable, audible measurement should include a controlled randomised sample of musicians, and that consensus should be reached (say, via inter-rater reliability scores). The 'magic' is simply psychoacoustics... "Listen! This $100,000 patch cable sounds different!"-"Now you mention it..." Bottom line - If you wanna spend a {censored}load of cash on your cables and can afford it - more power to you. If you just wanna get a good cable that'll keep you rockin' for years and won't fall apart - more power to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rippin' Robin Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 A CHORUS PEDAL IS A CHORUS PEDAL IS A CHORUS PEDAL (PLUG IN ANY PEDAL YOU WANT) THE OUTPUT IS THE SAME - CHORUS! Yet, changes the basic design yield significant changes in HOW the chorus sounds, than personal preference comes into play as people prefer one chorsus pedal over another based on what they are HEARING! AGAIN, IT IS NO DIFFERENT WITH CABLES - THE OUTPUT IS THE SAME - SIGNAL. I say this is comparing apples to pears. A cable is structurally less complex than a chorus pedal, thus, variations are much more likely to occur in the signal path of the chorus pedal as every separate part is produced within its own tolerance levels. In short, more things can go 'wrong' in the signal path of the pedal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LavaMan Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 A-men. But let me add that these repeatable, audible measurement should include a controlled randomised sample of musicians, and that consensus should be reached (say, via inter-rater reliability scores).The 'magic' is simply psychoacoustics... "Listen! This $100,000 patch cable sounds different!"-"Now you mention it..."Bottom line - If you wanna spend a {censored}load of cash on your cables and can afford it - more power to you.If you just wanna get a good cable that'll keep you rockin' for years and won't fall apart - more power to you. Again, you guys are failing to understand what a cable does in your signal path, and because you have not done your own ABX listening tests with various cable designs, you have no basis on which to claim it's "psychoacoustics" Trust me, all it takes is one time HEARING the SIGNIFICANT audible differences in cable design and you will NOT want to plug back into cheap copper coax - at least if your tone and amp response is important to you at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LavaMan Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 I say this is comparing apples to pears. A cable is structurally less complex than a chorus pedal, thus, variations are much more likely to occur in the signal path of the chorus pedal as every separate part is produced within its own tolerance levels. In short, more things can go 'wrong' in the signal path of the pedal. I partially agree with that - but the analogy still works because the OUTPUTS are the same for both. The problem is that at your local music store you few cable choices and more pedal choices - so you can compare... Cable design is more complex than you think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rippin' Robin Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 Again, you guys are failing to understand what a cable does in your signal path, and because you have not done your own ABX listening tests, you have no basis on which to claim it's "psychoacoustics"Trust me, all it takes is one time HEARING the SIGNIFICANT audible differences in cable design and you will NOT want to plug back into cheap copper coax - at least if your tone and amp response is important to you at all... I am not failing to understand what a cable does in the signal path. You are assuming we're all failing to understand. IIRC, one forumite over here has done extensive double-blind testing, including computer oscilloscope tests, and the difference between cheap and stupidly expensive cable was negligible. Let's get this straight, I'd buy a cable from you over any mass-produced cable because I know I will get a cable which has been produced with care by a competent person instead of some Chinese kid in a sweatshop. I just don't care about all this "I can hear a difference, so let try and find some science to back up my opinion". FWIW, I do not hear the difference between a POS cable and the cable Butch over at Bayou cable made me. Call me semi-deaf and barbaric if you will, but for me (and many others) there is no audible difference in cables, and so this is no issue for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rippin' Robin Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 I partially agree with that - but the analogy still works because the OUTPUTS are the same for both.The problem is that at your local music store you few cable choices and more pedal choices - so you can compare...Cable design is more complex than you think... Alright. What's the short lowdown of one 6-ft stretch of copper wire versus another 6-ft stretch of copper wire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LavaMan Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 Alright. What's the short lowdown of one 6-ft stretch of copper wire versus another 6-ft stretch of copper wire? Lowdown: Nothing if they are the same. But change the copper purity, strand count, or go to solid copper strands and you can hear the difference. Do your own test: Go down to any local music store that carry's Monster/Planet waves or another brand and George L's and then play the George L's against the standard copper coax stuff (same length) - if you cannot hear a difference then that is unfortunate. I use Goerge L's becuase it is a low strand count, low capacitance design - one extreme end of the cable design arena if will... Then post your results on this forum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rippin' Robin Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 Lowdown:Nothing if they are the same. But change the copper purity, strand count, or go to solid copper strands and you can hear the difference.Do your own test:Go down to any local music store that carry's Monster/Planet waves or another brand and George L's and then play the George L's against the standard copper coax stuff (same length) - if you cannot hear a difference then that is unfortunate. I use Goerge L's becuase it is a low strand count, low capacitance design - one extreme end of the cable design arena if will...Then post your results on this forum... I have yet to see George L's in this country. How does strand count influence sound? Come to think of it - how does temperature of the cable influence sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LavaMan Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 I have yet to see George L's in this country.How does strand count influence sound?Come to think of it - how does temperature of the cable influence sound? Temperature - don't be silly... The more strands - the more "muted" the cable sounds. Many, many, of my customers have told me that Canare GS-6 sounds "dark" it has a strand count of 127 - and vice-versa Many, many, of my customers have told me that George L's sounds "bright" or "brittle" it has a strand count of 7.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thunderbroom Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 Oh, BTW...send me your ship to address to mark@lavacable.com and I will send you one of my high end cables for free and you will hear you bass like you have never heard it before... I'd LOVE to compare a 20' $140+ Zaolla cable to my 20' Monster Bass cable, my 20' Monster S100 cable, my 20' EWI cable and my $15 no-name 20 foot cable. Since Kindness and I live relatively close to each other maybe you can hook both of us up with some different cables. He and I can then get together an A/B them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted August 21, 2007 Moderators Share Posted August 21, 2007 Again, you guys are failing to understand what a cable does in your signal path, and because you have not done your own ABX listening tests with various cable designs, you have no basis on which to claim it's "psychoacoustics"I haven't? Really? How sure are you? Not sure enough apparently. Ignoring your first failure, even if I had not done my own, the numerous peer reviewed scientific studies give an informed person plenty of basis for the claim. The only baseless claims are coming from you.You are free to ship one of your cables to any of the local Chicago bassists on this board and I can assure you that we will all gather around and laugh at you. However, you can be rest assured that there is no cable you could send me that would enable me to hear my bass as it has never been heard before, unless it was defective and destructive to the signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted August 21, 2007 Moderators Share Posted August 21, 2007 I'd LOVE to compare a 20' $140+ Zaolla cable to my 20' Monster Bass cable, my 20' Monster S100 cable, my 20' EWI cable and my $15 no-name 20 foot cable. Since Kindness and I live relatively close to each other maybe you can hook both of us up with some different cables. He and I can then get together an A/B them all. Have him send anything he wants to you. We will have everyone over to my place. I no longer have an ABX switcher, but I'll sit out of the testing and let everyone else listen blindly as I manually do the ABX switching/logging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rippin' Robin Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 Temperature - don't be silly... What's so silly about that? Temperature influences resistance and conductivity of a metal. If you can hear the subtle differences between various brands of cable, you should certainly be able to hear the difference between a 10 degree F cable and a 100 degree F cable. Temperature changes resistance and conductivity in a cable. Ergo, you should be able to hear the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted August 21, 2007 Moderators Share Posted August 21, 2007 What's so silly about that? Temperature influences resistance and conductivity of a metal. If you can hear the subtle differences between various brands of cable, you should certainly be able to hear the difference between a 10 degree F cable and a 100 degree F cable. Temperature changes resistance and conductivity in a cable. Ergo, you should be able to hear the difference. Don't be silly RR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rippin' Robin Posted August 21, 2007 Members Share Posted August 21, 2007 Don't be silly RR. Sorry. It shan't happen again.*sit in the corner with physics 101 book and mopes* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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