God, Music 101 is so BORING!

[Roguetitan]

Who:eek:ps I forgot the smiley:D *hic*

[Onkel Bob]

 

Hoe many times have you seen F referred to as E#? I mean lets be realisticyour so called E#Major scale is in reality F MAJ scale or an E# Phygian Dominant Like which is about as useful as tits on a Boar.

 

 

I never said it was very useful. In fact I repeatedly said it wasn't. The circle of fifths follows a pattern. Each time you take a step clock-wise you go up a fifth and add an extra sharp. You can carry on doing that way beyond the point where it makes sense. But the rules are there and you could use a C## scale in place of a D scale. It'd have double sharps for everything and make very little practical sense but it's there...

 

So no you won't see anything written in the key of E# ever but theoretically there's really no reason why it shouldn't exist.

[Crescent Seven]

+1 - I know waaaaay too many people that are tens of thousands of dollars in debt because of their music degree that work in sub shops and video stores.

 

Music isn't the only silly major. I've worked Data Entry jobs with kids that held the following degrees:

-Sociology

-Psychology

-Marketing

-Advertising

-Literature (no education cert)

-Fine Art

-Music Business ()

 

There have been more. I know people that have Associates degrees in business management that are making 3 times the salary of other people I know that have B.A.'s. {censored}, my wife spent her time in the workforce gaining skills instead of going to college and she makes way more than most people coming out of college.

 

Personally, I think colleges should either ditch the Liberal Arts ripoff majors altogether, or have entirely separate colleges that specialize ONLY in degrees that don't apply to anything, and have those school be ineligible for subsidized Stafford loans and Pell Grants. That way our tax dollars won't be wasted on students who are going to default on their student loans because there's no such thing as a "sociologist" or a "marketer" in the real world.

C7

[Zamfir]

Sorry Roguetitan, Onkel Bob is right.

The circle of fifths/fourths is a shorthand tool for the *most commonly used* key signatures.

Most depictions of the circle do not contain all the possible key signatures, precisely for the reason that Onkel Bob has explained 3 or so times: E# would be a serious pain in the ass to write out, let alone read.

It exists; it's just not practical to use when we have the key of F.

[Roguetitan]

I never said it was very useful. In fact I repeatedly said it wasn't. The circle of fifths follows a pattern. Each time you take a step clock-wise you go up a fifth and add an extra sharp. You can carry on doing that way beyond the point where it makes sense. But the rules are there and you could use a C## scale in place of a D scale. It'd have double sharps for everything and make very little practical sense but it's there... So no you won't see anything written in the key of E# ever but theoretically there's really no reason why it shouldn't exist.

 

 

theoretically there is no reason why E# should exist because therefore E# serves no purpose on Grand Staff. therefore In theroy E# should be considered nonexistant except for in some scale that is rarely ever used because musically speaking it serves no purpose either.

[Zamfir]

theoretically there is no reason why E# should exist because therefore E# serves no purpose on Grand Staff. therefore In theroy E# should be considered nonexistant except for in some scale that is rarely ever used because musically speaking it serves no purpose either.

Things don't exist because they serve no purpose?

Oh wait, they should be *considered* non-existent.

I see great advances in our epistemological future!

[Roguetitan]

Sorry Roguetitan, Onkel Bob is right. The circle of fifths/fourths is a shorthand tool for the *most commonly used* key signatures. Most depictions of the circle do not contain all the possible key signatures, precisely for the reason that Onkel Bob has explained 3 or so times: E# would be a serious pain in the ass to write out, let alone read. It exists; it's just not practical to use when we have the key of F.

 

the circle of fifths could go on into infinity In theroy but what purpose would that serve but to add more confusion to the musical alphabet?

 

you are exactly right the circle of fifths/Fourths is a shorthand tool for the most commonly used Key signatures

 

E# is not commonly used nor is there an E# Major scale therefore he is wrong. If he would have said some useless E# Phyrgian Dominant scale then there would have never been any debate from me;)

thats what I am talking about.

[Onkel Bob]

 

the circle of fifths could go on into infinity In theroy but what purpose would that serve but to add more confusion to the musical alphabet? you are exactly right the circle of fifths/Fourths is a shorthand tool for the most commonly used Key signatures E# is not commonly used nor is there an E# Major scale therefore he is wrong. If he would have said some useless E# Phyrgian Dominant scale then there would have never been any debate from me;) thats what I am talking about.

 

 

But there are clear rules that explain how not only useful scales like C or G or A major work they also tell how E# and C## would work. There is an E# major scale. The rules clearly state how it works and which notes are in it. Therefore you are wrong. If you don't trust my knowledge of music theory go ask someone whose knowledge you do trust. Because apparently I can demonstrate again and again how it works and how it does exist and your answer will simply be "you're wrong."

[jonathan_matos5]

just shut the f up(or e# if you prefer)

 

this was a perfectly good thread about a boring subject and then turned into a pissing contest.

 

cant we all just get along:confused:

[der oxenrig]

just shut the f up(or e# if you prefer) this was a perfectly good thread about a boring subject and then turned into a pissing contest. cant we all just get along:confused:

 

NO!

 

(and by the way, i'm not majoring in music. I just want to be better at it.)

[chris-dax]

just shut the f up(or e# if you prefer) this was a perfectly good thread about a boring subject and then turned into a pissing contest. cant we all just get along:confused:

I love that...

STE#U NOOCb

[Roguetitan]

:thu:

just shut the f up(or e# if you prefer) this was a perfectly good thread about a boring subject and then turned into a pissing contest. cant we all just get along

Who is not getting along:idk:

just because we are not agreeing don't mean we aren't getting along, I am not pissed at anybody and I don,t think anyone else is pissed either.


I was having fun with this thread until you told us not to:cry:

if anything we have taken a boring subject and made it not so boring then you had to go and {censored} that up... Now I am Pissed:mad:





















































Just Kidding:D

[Jazz Ad]

Looks like a lot of people here could benefit from this class.

STE#U. I like that too.

[Roguetitan]

there are only 12 notes in the musical alphabet that are used in music composition.
1: A
2: A# or Bb
3: B
4: C
5: C# or Db
6: D
7: D# or Eb
8: E
9: F
10: F# or Gb
11: G
12: G# or Ab
1: A (Next Octave)


I will use the keys on a piano for my example: as we all know or at least should IMO, white Keys are all the natural notes(A-B-C-D-E-F-G) black keys are sharps and flats (A# or Bb-C# or Db-D# or Eb- F# or Gb-G# or Ab) there are no black keys between the B-C natural and the E-F Natural keys. No E# on the keyboard because it serves no purpose on either the Key board or in music composition.
therefore E# is non existant just as there is no Fb as well as B# and Cb otherwise there would be a black key between the E-F and B-C natural Key's therefore B#-Cb-E# Fb serves absolutley no purpose in the musical alphabet and is non existant on a piano,
theoritically speaking. that of course is my Theroy.
every one else is entitled to their own;)

[Jazz Ad]

You can build your own theory as much as you want, you're still wrong.

E# (and Fb for that matter) exist and can be used.

[Roguetitan]

You can build your own theory as much as you want, you're still wrong. E# (and Fb for that matter) exist and can be used.

 

 

show me any piece of published sheet music that incorperate these notes.

 

EDIT: better yet show me these notes on the key board

[Jazz Ad]

Not very hard to find. Any part with 6 or 7 sharps.

That's Scriabin's Etude Op. 8 No. 12 for you.

 

The key on your keyboard is that big white key right after every group of 2 little bitty black keys.

[Roguetitan]

Not very hard to find. Any part with 6 or 7 sharps. That's Scriabin's Etude Op. 8 No. 12 for you. The key on your keyboard is that big white key right after every group of 2 little bitty black keys.

Nope sorry I Don't see any enharmonic notes on that piece and I do not recognize enharmonic tones on the keyboard either because I choose not to, it creates confusion, KISS.
I do realize F can also be known as E# and E can also be known as Fb! C can also be known as B# and B can also be known as Cb but what practical appilcation can you use by changing these natural notes to flats or sharps? you cant so why bother?
Maybe you seem to be missing my point, I do not recognize these enharmonic tones because I choose not to, most other people do not recognize them either bacause they have no practical application. That Is all I am saying .

[wotamess]

it's great!

[Onkel Bob]

Key of C# once again...

C# D# E# F# G# A# B#

 

Or I could write it like this:

C# D# F F# G# A# C

 

Only now there are no third and seventh step. C# to F is not a major third even though it sounds a lot like one. It's a diminished fourth. Why? Because C D E F is four notes. And likewise C# to C isn't a seventh. It's a diminished octave. You had a point (although you were plain wrong) about the key of E# major. It does not see use. But to not use the note of E# or for that matter Fb does not make things less confusing. It makes things a whole lot more confusing. Being in denial about it doesn't change anything.

[Roguetitan]

Key of C# once again... C# D# E# F# G# A# B# Or I could write it like this: C# D# F F# G# A# C Only now there are no third and seventh step. C# to F is not a major third even though it sounds a lot like one. It's a diminished fourth. Why? Because C D E F is four notes. And likewise C# to C isn't a seventh. It's a diminished octave. You had a point (although you were plain wrong) about the key of E# major. It does not see use. But to not use the note of E# or for that matter Fb does not make things less confusing. It makes things a whole lot more confusing. Being in denial about it doesn't change anything.

I fully understand your example although I Identify the C#Maj scale as C#-D#-F ect...
but that is not what I am talking about, you keep referring to Fmajor scale to E# MAJ scale and I do not understand why:confused:

The scale you keep referring to as E#MAJ is not E# major scale it is E# Phyrgian Dominant scale. and I never said such a scale did not exist as I pointed this out to you in a post a page back.
It seems that a couple of you guys are not reading all of my posts before stating that I am wrong.
it may be more confusing for you but not for me.
I never said anyone is wrong in fact we are in essence both right.
all I said you were full of {censored} for calling the E# Phyrgian Dominant scale an E# Maj Scale
does that somehow clarify the confusion?

[Onkel Bob]

 

I do realize F can also be known as E# and E can also be known as Fb! C can also be known as B# and B can also be known as Cb but what practical appilcation can you use by changing these natural notes to flats or sharps? you cant so why bother? Maybe you seem to be missing my point, I do not recognize these enharmonic tones because I choose not to, most other people do not recognize them either bacause they have no practical application. That Is all I am saying .

 

 

and said that the note E# has no practical use. That's wrong. It has the very practical use that in any piece of music written in the key of F# you might very well see lots of E#'s and F#'s. If you wrote it as F and F# your bars might very well be filling up with loose sharps. That's IS confusing to anyone that has any training reading.

[Roguetitan]

E# major scale is a bit of an oddity. You rarely see keys with more than at most 7 sharps. E#-major would have 10 sharps. There's such a thing as an E# major scale but you'd never see it. Now a note can have two sharps only I don't how to type a double sharp here. The E# scale would go like this: E# F## G## A# B# C## D## You get the relative minor scale by looking at the sixth note in the major scale. And as you see that's not D rather it is C##.

 

[Onkel Bob]

 

I know but you should have.

 

 

Just for your benefit I went back and corrected that post. Where I said the key of E# would have 10 sharps it should said 11 sharps. I still typed it out correctly.

[hans_the_double]

reading this thread has reminded me that i know absolutely dick about theory. i should get on that sooner rather than later.